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Are kubelwagens OP

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wongtp
14 Sep 2014, 04:20 AM
#121
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2014, 04:03 AMJinseual


Excellent we have the stats of all early game vehicles in this post. Although, I found it odd that the Scout car still beats the kubelwagen even though the kubelwagen's dps is significantly bigger.


probably, dmg per shot and accuracy at range plays a huge role. plus m3 has abit more armour to resist rifle fire so m3 still has the edge over the kubel on the offense.

my guess is m3 are used more aggressively and able to get flank shots in that really destroys the kubel, also being able to load units that also increases the overall dps. while the kubel is more like a suppression platform not aggressively looking to flank, partly due to its poor armour that cannot resist infantry fire as well so going close up to make use of its superior close range dps will get it chewed out by infantry fire.
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Interloper
14 Sep 2014, 05:08 AM
#122
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Posts: 93

You know whats also pretty cool is OKW truck push and kubal. Use them together and see how easy it is. Now thats hot...
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elchino7
14 Sep 2014, 05:45 AM
#123
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2014, 04:03 AMJinseual


Excellent we have the stats of all early game vehicles in this post. Although, I found it odd that the Scout car still beats the kubelwagen even though the kubelwagen's dps is significantly bigger.


Yep, same experience. Try to face it couple of times 1on1 and you lose (plus mostly you will have a squad inside M3). BUT you don't have to be afraid to use it to finish off a damaged M3 and chase it.

ALSO

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2014, 04:20 AMwongtp
probably, dmg per shot and accuracy at range plays a huge role. plus m3 has abit more armour to resist rifle fire so m3 still has the edge over the kubel on the offense.



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Corp.Shephard
14 Sep 2014, 06:04 AM
#124
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Posts: 359

Accuracy is not a factor when it comes to light vehicle vs light vehicle.

The Target Sizes are on that graph. Accuracy is mulitplied by target size.

The Kubel's worst accuracy is at max range which is ~.15. .15*18 = 2.7. Even if the Kubelwagon is moving it should hit... every single shot? The reverse is basically true for the M3A1 though.

Armor is the key in these battles and the M3A1's better armor gives it the edge. That and it can have a squad it in every time.

The biggest difference is damage per bullet though. M3A1 does 10 damage per shot. Kubelwagon does 4.

That's why sometimes an M3A1 will just crush a Kubelwagon. If it penetrates a lot of shots in a burst it can do more damage than a Bazooka or the like.
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Burts
14 Sep 2014, 09:28 AM
#125
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Posts: 1702

I think kubels are somewhat too strong. But on their own they are mostly fine. However combined with truck push abuse they are simply horrible and fucking ridiciluos.


With the WC51 at 1 cp, there is practically no counter to this thing now. Just rush your sturmpios+kubel to cutoff, and truck push anything that manages to flank.
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mas1er
14 Sep 2014, 10:42 AM
#126
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Posts: 38

Does m3s scout car rear gun deal more damage than front gun?
If I interpreted correctly coh2stats then it is.
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DanielGrushin
14 Sep 2014, 11:13 AM
#127
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Posts: 18

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2014, 09:28 AMBurts
I think kubels are somewhat too strong. But on their own they are mostly fine. However combined with truck push abuse they are simply horrible and fucking ridiciluos.


With the WC51 at 1 cp, there is practically no counter to this thing now. Just rush your sturmpios+kubel to cutoff, and truck push anything that manages to flank.

2 rifles-fuel cache-LT-m20 and pray rng that your opponent not making fast puma
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drChengele
14 Sep 2014, 11:14 AM
#128
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Patrion 14

Posts: 640 | Subs: 1

Truck push is ridiculous, I haven't had it happen to me but I cannot believe it's still in the game.

Just give a 1 minute cooldown before the first sws enters the field at the start of the match. Problem fucking solved.
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Abdul
14 Sep 2014, 11:24 AM
#129
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Posts: 896

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2014, 06:04 AMCorp.Shephard
Accuracy is not a factor when it comes to light vehicle vs light vehicle.

The Target Sizes are on that graph. Accuracy is mulitplied by target size.

The Kubel's worst accuracy is at max range which is ~.15. .15*18 = 2.7. Even if the Kubelwagon is moving it should hit... every single shot? The reverse is basically true for the M3A1 though.

Armor is the key in these battles and the M3A1's better armor gives it the edge. That and it can have a squad it in every time.

The biggest difference is damage per bullet though. M3A1 does 10 damage per shot. Kubelwagon does 4.

That's why sometimes an M3A1 will just crush a Kubelwagon. If it penetrates a lot of shots in a burst it can do more damage than a Bazooka or the like.



That's a big if because it's too RNG based. Check how this confrontation turns out:



My suggestion is to never rush m3 to fight a kubel, it's just a very unpredictable fight. And if u are fighting a good player he will most likely have an AT waiting for u by the 3 min mark max.

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Abdul
14 Sep 2014, 11:30 AM
#130
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Posts: 896

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2014, 09:28 AMBurts
I think kubels are somewhat too strong. But on their own they are mostly fine. However combined with truck push abuse they are simply horrible and fucking ridiciluos.


You dont need to even use trucks anymore, just send the kubel with sturm pios and you can take on his rifles and minimize his map control while you comfortably cap the rest of the map with your volks. Below is a simple example of this. Note how the video has 3 sections one without fog of war and two showing fog of war for both sides. You can clearly see rifles walking into the ambush with no sight while the kubel has sight over everything including the flank and can react quickly and suppress in no time.




jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2014, 09:28 AMBurts
With the WC51 at 1 cp, there is practically no counter to this thing now. Just rush your sturmpios+kubel to cutoff, and truck push anything that manages to flank.


for usf yes
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Sierra
14 Sep 2014, 12:17 PM
#131
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Posts: 432

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2014, 01:23 AMBob Loblaw
What happened to Allies having the advantage early game and Axis having the advantage late game? Shouldn't Axis be on the back foot during the early game and not the other way around?


Early game for US: Be ultra careful and maintain proper spacing or a squad will be forced to retreat because of a Kubel and you will be at a disadvantage. Since the Kubel is so fast and comes so early it can be anywhere. Having a squad retreat that early is a big deal.

Late game for US: Be ultra careful or you will lose one of your paper tanks to superior Axis AT and be at a disadvantage.

Who can afford the teching to hard counter a Kubel before a few squads are forced to retreat from this thing?

This is why playing allies is not as fun. You feel like you are on the back foot and dealing with nonsense at all times.

OKW and kubels are fun to play though.



That's exactly the problem, it's a delusion. No side should have an advantage early game, because without an early game, there is no mid or late game. Which turns Company of Heroes 2 into Company of Spam the Most OP Early shit we can get and make the other team rage quit... Kind of a reach for a point but I think I made it stick.
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wongtp
14 Sep 2014, 13:51 PM
#132
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Posts: 647

looking at abdul's vid, i think its pretty clear kubels have the edge. insane damage, suppression and mobility all in one, not to mention a smaller target size = lower received accuracy.

as long as kubel stays away from getting flanked by m3 or dodge, i think it can easily reign supreme against infantry. okw dont need the best hmg AND the best light vehicle.
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The_Courier
14 Sep 2014, 14:19 PM
#133
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Posts: 665

Playing around both with it and against it some more, I've come to the conclusion it is indeed OP now. If it's decently microed (which really isn't hard at all), it's basically immune to anything save an aggressive M3 or early zookas, and even those are RNG based (M3's armor is hit and miss, zooks have shit accuracy at range) and relies on the Kubel being unsupported. A properly supported Kubel, you almost need an AT gun or a tank to take down, and thanks to its small target size even a ZiS is pretty luck-based when it comes to destroying it.

Infantry flanks I see no way to make it work unless you manage to corner it with 3 squads or something. It's way too fast to die to small arms fire unless the OKW player is comatse.

It really needs a fuel cost. Along maybe with a mobility nerf, since it's an MG that, right now, is really unrewarding to flank thanks to how easily it repositions.
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Interloper
14 Sep 2014, 14:35 PM
#134
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Posts: 93

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2014, 11:13 AMDanielGrushin

2 rifles-fuel cache-LT-m20 and pray rng that your opponent not making fast puma


Heh you know its coming any high teir OKW player will go with a quick puma. All you can do is hope that you can kill the puma with mines from the M20 or use bazookas to deal with it, but hey guess what the OKW puma has so many get of jail cards its pretty ridiculous.

What has been happening with me is I run into 1 or 2 Kubals from OKW usually one at my strat point at the start of the match slowing me down from getting my fuel. I cap around the map, rush an M20 hunt down the stupid kubals with it, drop a pack of mines and hope I can get the puma. Have the M20 go with my rifles and harass. Build a MG, create a fuel cache and tech to CPT for AT gun and fight the puma or luchs.
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kersal
14 Sep 2014, 15:39 PM
#135
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Posts: 63

Another problem for USF is that Bazooka now is not a real counter, because u cannot destroy Kubel with 1 shoot and so kubel can run away just after pinned the bazooka squad. And 2 bazooka (120 ammo and 15 fuel) cannot be a solution for a t0 unit that cost 0 fuel!
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willyto
14 Sep 2014, 16:03 PM
#136
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Bazookas are not an option. You have to spend FUEL and MP plus muni to kill a car that doesn't even cost fuel.

I hope you don't expect someone to spend fuel + MP + muni to use Bazookas which are useless.

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JHeartless
14 Sep 2014, 16:58 PM
#137
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Posts: 1637

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2014, 14:35 PMInterloper


Heh you know its coming any high teir OKW player will go with a quick puma. All you can do is hope that you can kill the puma with mines from the M20 or use bazookas to deal with it, but hey guess what the OKW puma has so many get of jail cards its pretty ridiculous.

What has been happening with me is I run into 1 or 2 Kubals from OKW usually one at my strat point at the start of the match slowing me down from getting my fuel. I cap around the map, rush an M20 hunt down the stupid kubals with it, drop a pack of mines and hope I can get the puma. Have the M20 go with my rifles and harass. Build a MG, create a fuel cache and tech to CPT for AT gun and fight the puma or luchs.


This is exactly what I did as OKW last game. The USF player got early Zooks then missed with every shot. Free vet back away kubel.

Then he tried to use smoke and flank it WOOPS Vet 1 infantry awareness I SEE YOUU!!! Back away Kubel. Then comes an early Flaktrack and WOOPS PUMA!

Kubel should cost a little bit of Fuel I think.

I like the Kubels DPS because it can actually get snipers to retreat and or hurt them pretty good. I think its suppression is good. And I think its actually worth getting now. But its got too many things going for it at its cost.

10 Fuel at least (since you can salvage it for 5)
jump backJump back to quoted post5 Mar 2015, 21:57 PMREforever
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
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Beinhard
14 Sep 2014, 17:31 PM
#138
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Posts: 161

Kubel-jesus is just way beyond OP, get two of these and rush any Sovjet/USF player, instant win within 10mins
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Nilon
14 Sep 2014, 17:39 PM
#139
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2014, 15:39 PMkersal
Another problem for USF is that Bazooka now is not a real counter, because u cannot destroy Kubel with 1 shoot and so kubel can run away just after pinned the bazooka squad. And 2 bazooka (120 ammo and 15 fuel) cannot be a solution for a t0 unit that cost 0 fuel!


Bazookas deal 80 dmg against a Kübel with 190 HP, so you need 3 Bazookas to kill it.
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newvan
14 Sep 2014, 17:46 PM
#140
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Posts: 354

Got 6+ with 2 kubels in random 2*2 (and I'am mediocre, mainly ally, player), locking enemy fuel, my god, with sturmpios - they even rape M3. Only 8 maxims opening stopped them. So fast, so small and so effective, they definitely need changes in characteristics or price.
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