Are kubelwagens OP

Exactly. I'm quite surprised nobody mentioned this. Who preserves a kubel more than 10 minutes from game start? Don't tell me Helping Hans or such. I don't think we are discussing at that level. It's not comparable to any infantry unit including maxim, which can be usefull all the game.
That is why it's not OP. Not by far.

My normal OKW start has been double kubels for some time, they are even better now, but they are, as noted, somewhat fragile

Anyway, last night on Rostov I built 2, which vetted to level 2 early and stayed alive for the whole of a 45 minute match.

Principally because I parked them as flank guard and nothing much came that way, or when it did it had better things to shoot at

Maybe I am not ruthless enough to kill them off for the pop cap

As someone who has been using Kubels since alpha, I would not be adverse to a 5 or even 10 fuel cost if I can keep it as it is. I mean it's not as if it will set you back too hard on teching, who ever builds more than one per game anyway?

As noted above, me, since WFA came out

Orthadox use seems to be have 1 with two sturms and use the kubel to pin and kill with sturms

I am only interested in delay, so I cover one with the other and when it gets dinged up pull it back and repair.


This doesn't get me much map control, but it denies it to the opposition and my team can cap behind me

I've concerns about the new Kubelwagon.

If you're confident with your Kubels they're really strong. Like stupid strong early game and you can keep them around a real long time.

Here's a good example.

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  VS

  Jaksfess Marko

  Corp.Shephard ThePugnaciousPenguin

  I got 9/9 Patch Problems...

  by: Corp.Shephard map: Semoskiy

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Dual Kubel is very viable.

At the same time you should recognize the strategy of the enemy and adapt to it. If you see multiple Kubelwagons and you're annoyed because you need to change your build? That's stupid. Pick up a counter like a quick M20 Utility Car or ZiS-3. If you were playing Axis and you saw two M3A1s would you say "Eh, fuck it. I don't feel like I want to build a 222 or a Puma. I think I'll get an Infantry Support Gun!". Of course not. You'd get the counter.

In the game above my enemy doesn't switch tech or pick up an early vehicle until a Stuart to my knowledge. He just keeps rollin' with Vet Riflemen with no upgrades and hopes that I'll make a mistake. He tries to flank quite a bit and does an admirable job! That's no replacement for the right units though.

Adaptation to the enemy's strategy is natural.

USF vs Kubal, Wehr vs WC51, Wehr vs M3. Early light vehicles are jokes made by relic.

I've concerns about the new Kubelwagon.

If you're confident with your Kubels they're really strong. Like stupid strong early game and you can keep them around a real long time.

Here's a good example.

•  
  

  0

  VS

  Jaksfess Marko

  Corp.Shephard ThePugnaciousPenguin

  I got 9/9 Patch Problems...

  by: Corp.Shephard map: Semoskiy

  1

  -

Dual Kubel is very viable.

At the same time you should recognize the strategy of the enemy and adapt to it. If you see multiple Kubelwagons and you're annoyed because you need to change your build? That's stupid. Pick up a counter like a quick M20 Utility Car or ZiS-3. If you were playing Axis and you saw two M3A1s would you say "Eh, fuck it. I don't feel like I want to build a 222 or a Puma. I think I'll get an Infantry Support Gun!". Of course not. You'd get the counter.

In the game above my enemy doesn't switch tech or pick up an early vehicle until a Stuart to my knowledge. He just keeps rollin' with Vet Riflemen with no upgrades and hopes that I'll make a mistake. He tries to flank quite a bit and does an admirable job! That's no replacement for the right units though.

Adaptation to the enemy's strategy is natural.

Thanks for posting this. What you say is true, but at least a USF player has a chance to stall in semio until he gets enough resource for a sc (mainly because there is plenty of cover/houses and the fuel point is next to the base). Now imagine playing on Crossing in the Woods against OKW going double kubel. Unless he does a mistake, he will have his panzer headquarter up before you have the sc. That how bad map control will be for the USF player because of kubel.

USF vs Kubal, Wehr vs WC51, Wehr vs M3. Early light vehicles are jokes made by relic.

precisely

USF vs Kubal, Wehr vs WC51, Wehr vs M3. Early light vehicles are jokes made by relic.

Yes. I've been against it since the beginning, especially with the DPS on those things. They bring too many balance problems, and are either OP or borderline useless.

Jeeps and motorcycles worked in CoH1 because they were fragile, very cheap and had shit DPS. They were sniper hunters, it was their job, and CoH2 light vehicles should have been the same.

Maybe a narrower firing range would offset its mobility.

Maybe a narrower firing range would offset its mobility.

+1
I like this idea.
Making Kubel something alike to Maxims. Very good to pin lone squads but unable to stop blobs.

I notice easy counter for Kubel,

Rifle spam from many direction = easy to counter since OKW

For Soviet maxim or m3 easy kill kubel, unfortunately both these (maxim, m3 ) are quite OP atm.

Fin-ally OKW has a soft counter vs the former early game uncountable easymode M3s, jeeps and sniperteams. I don't wanna write another L2P response but it tickles in my fingers.

Yes. I've been against it since the beginning, especially with the DPS on those things. They bring too many balance problems, and are either OP or borderline useless.

Jeeps and motorcycles worked in CoH1 because they were fragile, very cheap and had shit DPS. They were sniper hunters, it was their job, and CoH2 light vehicles should have been the same.

I miss the MG spam from July/August 2013....and the infantry fights....these light vehicles ruined this game for me,M3 was retarded already for Soviets

Wow, kubel OP realy? When players wrote about the unstoppable jeep, m3 and maxim/sniper abuse VS poor OKW who had no counter to it, all the responses were "Noob L2P". Now finally OKW has at least a chance with this kubel and instantly the kubel is Op? Why? Cuz the abuse VS OKW doesn't work anymore?

The kubel is stronger in the front, you can't blob some rifles and rush to it from front and rip it apart like pre-patch. You have to FLANK it. Use several directions, the kubel is very weak in side and rears.

Here it comes the magical words: please go and L2P

i find the problem now that people make 2 of them and their mobility & suppression is killing the US early game.

+1
I like this idea.
Making Kubel something alike to Maxims. Very good to pin lone squads but unable to stop blobs.

But blobs should be punished. That's the heart and soul of the CoH franchise. Why do you like the idea of crippling its suppression? So you can blob? I've seen you complain about axis blobbing, why should it be ok for allies to blob? C'mon man...


US rifles beat volks at every range. Remember the US roflstomp early game last patch?


Bazooka upgrade is a good counter and not expensive. Axis have to sacrifice anti-inf power to get anti-tank because of allid vehicles. I think it's fair that allies can be forced to too.

USF vs Kubal, Wehr vs WC51, Wehr vs M3. Early light vehicles are jokes made by relic.

plus 1 million.

But blobs should be punished. That's the heart and soul of the CoH franchise. Why do you like the idea of crippling its suppression? So you can blob? I've seen you complain about axis blobbing, why should it be ok for allies to blob? C'mon man...


US rifles beat volks at every range. Remember the US roflstomp early game last patch?


Bazooka upgrade is a good counter and not expensive. Axis have to sacrifice anti-inf power to get anti-tank because of allid vehicles. I think it's fair that allies can be forced to too.




plus 1 million.

Bazookas delay your T2 or T3 and a not reliable, it would be good if only it doesn't cost fuel to unblock them. And since it is now really easy for OWK to deny fuel, just send it to the USF fuel point and it's done for a good time.

The Gameplay and design issue here is USF shouldn't be the faction buying counters to be preserved from aggressive units in the first 5 minutes - otherwise, do not call it the Early domination faction anymore and give them good damn late game heavy tanks

Below are the kubel key stats in comparison to other early light vehicles. Figures in red highlight the balance problem with this unit.




Looking at those numbers in the order listed above there are several problems including:

Target size (10) is too small, which makes hitting kubel with an AT gun at far distance (accuracy .04 for zis) hard. You have basically 40% chance of hitting kubel. And getting closer doesn't improve your chances so much. You have to be right next to it to get a 60% chance of hitting it. This unit needs at least a 15 target size to make at guns effective against it.

Acceleration at 4.5 is the fastest that I know of in the game and only the OKW puma has this kind of acceleration. In comparison all other early light vehicles have around 2 acceleration (less than half). This is the main reason why the kubel can avoid counters effectively and get out of flanks so easily. This number need to be brought down to be inline with other light vehicles.

Sight at 50 is the same for all of those units but given the kubel is essentially a mobile mg it should not have that much sight. This enables it to go solo, hunting unsuspecting units and suppressing them before they know its there (infantry have 35 sight), and this is exactly whats happening now. Sight should be brought down to at least 35 like all mgs and even I encourage bringing down all support weapons sight to 30, so that they can never go solo and be effective like the maxim is so well know to be.

Damage at 17.4 near and 4.8 far is insane in this unit, and while one can argue that suppressed units take less damage so its not effective as it appears it has almost double the dps of an m3 at near range. Even with less armor the kubel can take on the m3 which requires teching and cost fuel. Damage or penetration need to be reduced on this vehicle.

Penetration is actually higher than the m3 which brings the question why a mobile mg has this kind of pentarion. If damage is left the same this figure needs to go down so that the kubel can't counter everything including its own counters like the m3 and dodge truck.

Looking at those stats and experiencing it in game, the kubel was tuned into a super unit that requires no teching and costs no fuel and can take on all early counters and get out of most flanks with ease. Its combination of acceleration, sight, damage, penetration, and the fact that it requires no setup time like all other mgs and suppresses units before the first burst is complete makes the kubel the perfect example of an over powered unit. I just wonder how long it will take relic to fix this mess. Judging by the last mess (katyusha) it might be soon hopefully.

edit: This unit requires a fuel cost to minimize spamming and or a performance reduction to make it function properly in the early game.

But blobs should be punished. That's the heart and soul of the CoH franchise. Why do you like the idea of crippling its suppression? So you can blob? I've seen you complain about axis blobbing, why should it be ok for allies to blob? C'mon man...


US rifles beat volks at every range. Remember the US roflstomp early game last patch?


Bazooka upgrade is a good counter and not expensive. Axis have to sacrifice anti-inf power to get anti-tank because of allid vehicles. I think it's fair that allies can be forced to too.

Rifles beat volks because apart from doctrinal units, US have no other early game options whatsoever. OKW on the other hand has Volks, Sturmpios and Kubel, 3 units which work incredibly well together. You are not supposed to beat enemy units with Volks until they get grenade and veterancy, that's why OKW is the only faction with 3 viable combat units right out of their HQ.

All factions blob, and it's not the Kubel that will stop a big blob. You need arty or tanks for that. Blobbers are almost always poor players anyway, we shouldn't really talk about them in balance discussion.

As for bazooka, you are kidding, right? Forking over 25 fuel and 60 ammo to kill one Kubel and be worthless against basically every other OKW vehicles? The bazookas that were also nerfed to only ever hit at short range, against a suppressing range 40 unit with a 10 target size that has the best acceleration in the game? If you force your opponent to get zookas and delay his actually useful units, the Kubel has already more than paid for itself even if it gets 0 kills. Axis get their shrecks with no fuel cost, and these are useful all game long. They're also going up against light vehicles that, at least, cost fuel and either require a tech building or an otherwise shit dotrine.

People who compare m3 as counter to Kubel is all fine, but the kubel is really your first unit. An m3 comes after the building of t1, which gives the opponent already the oppertunity to build some more squads.

The opening of a kubel without costing any fuel is too strong atm. It should atleast cost SOME fuel or require teching.A ultra-mobile mg with good damage is a joke in the first seconds of the game.

"You can flank it" - Yes but it relocates so fast that, in the hands of a good player and conjunction with other units, is very hard to counter. A very hard counter is cool, but not in the absolute first stage of the game.

My opinion as always, you don't have to agree.

During the alpha it was several times suggested (me including) to change the Kübel with the MG34, by this the now created "OP" drama could be avoided by making it doctrinal 1 cp call in.

Make it worse and becomes again just a niche unit, right now it's in a good spot in my opinion. Allies players just hardly had a problem to deal with them before, now since they become viable people have first to adapt.

It's still not as punishing as a dodge or m3 since you can't units on retreat unless they are on really low health.
M3 flamers wipe your full health squad if they catch a unit alone, the kübel can't do that, you can always retreat and try again.
Blobbing doesn't working against it, but attacking from multiple directions (aka micro) does the trick.

Damage at 17.4 near and 4.8 far is insane in this unit, and while one can argue that suppressed units take less damage so its not effective as it appears it has almost double the dps of an m3 at near range. Even with less armor the kubel can take on the m3 which requires teching and cost fuel. Damage or penetration need to be reduced on this vehicle.

Don't forget that the M3 and the WC51 can garrison units to increase their DPS and grants them the ability to rapidly cap the map. I need some more time to determine what I think about the current state of the kubel, but right now if feels like it's in a good spot and rewards good micro. A single misstep and the thing does down really quickly.