As you know, Russians have 6-men weapon teams while the Germans have 3. I'm fine with that in general.
The issue arises with the slow pace of close quarter combat. Say I ambush a Russian weapon team with an assault squad (PGs or what have you). Say I'm doing this from behind as well - and there's no way that the team sees my squad before it is literally on them (and I don't see the enemy squad as well).
Currently in this scenario, if the weapon team retreats within 2-3 secs after first seeing my squad, it will get home safely with some losses and some scratches. Should it be like this? Should not watching your weapon teams only be punished by a timeout of ~1-2 mins and 90 manpower in losses or should it cost you the squad?
Also, if I use an ability like a grenade - what should the result of the combat be, given that I land it perfectly between all the enemy troops - while they are most likely on retreat.
Before someone points this out: this isn't just because the Russian MG is inferior - their mortar is quite a lot better than the German one and it is just as hard to catch (yes, I know, different tiers, but still).
Discuss.
6-men weapon teams and ambushes
10 Apr 2013, 22:34 PM
#1
Posts: 180
11 Apr 2013, 06:18 AM
#2
Posts: 2807 | Subs: 6
for russians i'd set crew members to 4
actually... german and soviet mortars are the same but in newest patch they said that german mortar is now firing 50% faster, trolololololo
actually... german and soviet mortars are the same but in newest patch they said that german mortar is now firing 50% faster, trolololololo
11 Apr 2013, 06:25 AM
#3
Posts: 642
I think the MG squad should be much more squishy (reduce armor). Increase the damage and effectiveness of the gun in exchange. Here's what I think should happen in an ideal scenario:
The Maxim becomes more lethal, but it has a narrow cone of fire, thus more susceptible to flanks. Attacking it straight on is a mistake, but if you manage to flank it, the crew is slightly more fragile than the german version.
Indirect fire could be a problem, especially from mortars and/or rifle grenades or artillery, but keep in mind: you are still almost sniper proof, and you can keep a steady reserve of conscripts ready to merge with your maxim to keep it fresh.
The Maxim becomes more lethal, but it has a narrow cone of fire, thus more susceptible to flanks. Attacking it straight on is a mistake, but if you manage to flank it, the crew is slightly more fragile than the german version.
Indirect fire could be a problem, especially from mortars and/or rifle grenades or artillery, but keep in mind: you are still almost sniper proof, and you can keep a steady reserve of conscripts ready to merge with your maxim to keep it fresh.
11 Apr 2013, 08:43 AM
#4
Posts: 18
MG squads armor reduce? man, those things die like flies with the right counter.... i have made the experience the die a lot faster then in coh1...
11 Apr 2013, 13:38 PM
#5
Posts: 881
They also gave the MG42 more damage than Maxim to counter its larger squad size.
?!?!?!
?!?!?!
11 Apr 2013, 15:27 PM
#6
Posts: 65
for russians i'd set crew members to 4
totaly agree with barton
4 members should be enought
11 Apr 2013, 17:43 PM
#7
Posts: 308 | Subs: 1
6 is fine probably...but all 6 members have the same health-per-man as the German 3 man teams. Doesn't make any sense.
11 Apr 2013, 22:11 PM
#8
Posts: 642
MG's die easily? if they manage to lock down in one of the horribly chokey maps, you can't snipe them off in time, no grenades to kill em (riflenades only "weaken"). You can only resort to mortars or vehicles.
Now granted, you can rush vehicles and mortars very easily, but IF they fix the early game, you won't have easy access to those without sacrificing capping power (IMHO, axis mortar needs to go T2).
Also if you reduce their number to 4, or less, you defeat the point of conscript merging.
Only problem is, I don't know if merged units use the same stats as the conscripts merging in them. I uses a "joker" conscript squad in one game to quickly reinforce guard squad retreating to my base, and I noticed they lost men quicker than usual (since these new men had conscript armor).
Kolaris prolly knows this better though. I haven't checked the game files yet
Now granted, you can rush vehicles and mortars very easily, but IF they fix the early game, you won't have easy access to those without sacrificing capping power (IMHO, axis mortar needs to go T2).
Also if you reduce their number to 4, or less, you defeat the point of conscript merging.
Only problem is, I don't know if merged units use the same stats as the conscripts merging in them. I uses a "joker" conscript squad in one game to quickly reinforce guard squad retreating to my base, and I noticed they lost men quicker than usual (since these new men had conscript armor).
Kolaris prolly knows this better though. I haven't checked the game files yet
11 Apr 2013, 22:30 PM
#9
Posts: 13
It's a trade off of survivability for effectiveness... don't really see the problem other than not being as satisfying to outflank. I believe since the patch the German mortar does more damage and fires faster than the 82mm one, while the 120mm is more expensive. German MG has a much more satisfying firing arc and the PAK is definitely better vs. what it has to deal with than the ZiS. In addition to which, Russian weapons teams all come at the expense of elite infantry production, while German weapons teams don't.
@CombatMuffin - if the Soviet has a number of weapon teams you can probably invest in a mortar without losing too much capping power.
Makes perfect sense, trade off of survivability vs. effectiveness.
Horribly chokey maps are a problem all of their own, but the Ostheer have a fair few advantages on them too.
@CombatMuffin - if the Soviet has a number of weapon teams you can probably invest in a mortar without losing too much capping power.
6 is fine probably...but all 6 members have the same health-per-man as the German 3 man teams. Doesn't make any sense.
Makes perfect sense, trade off of survivability vs. effectiveness.
Horribly chokey maps are a problem all of their own, but the Ostheer have a fair few advantages on them too.
11 Apr 2013, 23:31 PM
#10
Posts: 642
@CombatMuffin - if the Soviet has a number of weapon teams you can probably invest in a mortar without losing too much capping power.
This is true, but one can only make such a decision if the enemy has overinvested in weapons teams. Capping power in CoH2 is, of course, relative: Weapon teams can capture points without problems, now that passive capping is possible, but you still lose mobility.
12 Apr 2013, 07:44 AM
#11
Posts: 18
.... You can only resort to mortars or vehicles....
you said it yourself. the sense of a good strategy game is RPS. There you have your counter. If you could counter a russian mg with every infantry unit it would be quite useless.
and if you do it right, you can have the first scout car or sth like that in less than 10 mins in the game and you can just outmicro the mg.
12 Apr 2013, 14:01 PM
#12
Posts: 3293
the 6 man squads are hard to bring down. the only way to kill them is flank them with infatnry/flamers or bring in something that isn't effected by it. mortar, sdfk222, sniper.
tbh i think the germans need some of there support/infantry units to get an extra man. (refering to grens,at guns, and maybe even mortars)
tbh i think the germans need some of there support/infantry units to get an extra man. (refering to grens,at guns, and maybe even mortars)
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13 Apr 2013, 04:30 AM
#13
Posts: 522
Yup 6 man captured german mg is OP, make it 4 man mg teams for russians and maybe widen the arc of fire of the maxim in exchange
13 Apr 2013, 11:15 AM
#14
Posts: 68
Should be 4, because if you reduce the health/armor of the 6 men squad the MG/mortar will never fire. The main gunner will always get killed and the sync for the new gunner will take too long before he also gets killed.
14 Apr 2013, 00:49 AM
#15
Posts: 180
Should be 4, because if you reduce the health/armor of the 6 men squad the MG/mortar will never fire. The main gunner will always get killed and the sync for the new gunner will take too long before he also gets killed.
I was thinking that as well.
This is a fix which gives a bit more health to these squads without making them too weak or too strong. As it stands, the Russians will rarely lose a non-AT weapon team. The mild exception is if a mortar gets bombarded by a barrage from another mortar.
15 Apr 2013, 11:37 AM
#16
Posts: 642
Should be 4, because if you reduce the health/armor of the 6 men squad the MG/mortar will never fire. The main gunner will always get killed and the sync for the new gunner will take too long before he also gets killed.
You make a good point there. I hadn't thought of that.
15 Apr 2013, 12:11 PM
#17
Posts: 56
So instead of flanking weapon teams in intricate dances that are interesting to watch and interesting to play, we're going to watch our retarded tier 1 mortar slowly (or very quickly) kill them as we sit behind a river and wait. Brilliant.
15 Apr 2013, 13:12 PM
#18
Posts: 642
So instead of flanking weapon teams in intricate dances that are interesting to watch and interesting to play, we're going to watch our retarded tier 1 mortar slowly (or very quickly) kill them as we sit behind a river and wait. Brilliant.
Which is why I have suggested that mortars be moved to Tier 2. I believe the game should start with direct small arms engagements first, then move on to advanced support and light vehicles, then on to medium vehicles and light artillery, and finally heavy vehicles, heavy artillery, etc.
Right now, Russian MG's can get mortared AND sniped in the first 5 minutes of gameplay.
The chokey maps also mean that MG placement is quite obvious, so positioning mortars is easy as hell.
16 Apr 2013, 07:04 AM
#19
Posts: 1210 | Subs: 1
Russian crews should be 4, 6 is too ridiculous atm
16 Apr 2013, 07:05 AM
#20
Posts: 172
Eh, imo early mortar promotes early direct fire engagements and flanking. At least, if the Soviet player doesn't go t2 building.
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