OKW Puma

Forum is run by soviet whiners they want to nerf the only unit that has any sort of credibility in the OKW arsenal. Yet it still gets owned by the US AA truck in a 1v1 fight. Amazing

You're not exactly well placed to talk of credibility here. Good players consistently rate the Puma as a very good unit, and while we shouldn't take their word as absolute gospel, it's certainly worth more than the opinion of someone who still believes the result of a matchup from 2 patches ago still exists.

Hint: even if both units are immobile, puma will kill the AA HT all the time, unless the puma also exposes its rear. Since your puma has no reason to be immobile nor to expose its rear, only very poor micro can make it lose.

I was a strong proponent of Puma is the best unit in the game since the beginning. Crazy good survivability duo to speed and smoke, range, penetration and DPS to tackle even heavy tanks, an excellent vet ability, sufficient AI and an affordable price makes it a complete package - which also arrives rather early. In the hands of a good player it is a beastly unit.

A little nerf could be warranted:
-Remove or put smoke at vet 1
-Remove or lower the DPS of the MG
-Lower the penetration a little bit

this, this and this. right now its behaving like a super beefed up 222 with more hp, escape abilities, speed and a powerful main gun.

more importantly, it needs either sight or range, right now it can spot for itself and shoot, with schrecks support, puma beats mediums who should be their hardest counters.

this, this and this. right now its behaving like a super beefed up 222 with more hp, escape abilities, speed and a powerful main gun.

more importantly, it needs either sight or range, right now it can spot for itself and shoot, with schrecks support, puma beats mediums who should be their hardest counters.

well considering its timing and cost, it should function like a beefed up 222. also, why would a medium tank be its hardest counter? the puma is actually meant to be a counter to medium tanks in my opinion. its penetration makes it way overkill for light vehicles.

i think the puma does need a nerf, but these arent the reasons why.

I was a strong proponent of Puma is the best unit in the game since the beginning. Crazy good survivability duo to speed and smoke, range, penetration and DPS to tackle even heavy tanks, an excellent vet ability, sufficient AI and an affordable price makes it a complete package - which also arrives rather early. In the hands of a good player it is a beastly unit.

A little nerf could be warranted:
-Remove or put smoke at vet 1
-Remove or lower the DPS of the MG
-Lower the penetration a little bit

Puma goes doctrinal unit, from 6CP, as OST Puma? P4J switch Puma place, as a non doctrinal unit, for 105F per each? This would be fine ? P4J have not 50 range, no vet0 smoke, no insane speed/agility, and high dps coaxical mg.

well considering its timing and cost, it should function like a beefed up 222. also, why would a medium tank be its hardest counter? the puma is actually meant to be a counter to medium tanks in my opinion. its penetration makes it way overkill for light vehicles.

i think the puma does need a nerf, but these arent the reasons why.

Then whats your opinion about the us flak track? I think people complain a bit to much about its ai abilities but to be honest the ai abilities of the puma are not worth mentioning to anyone who uses some form of AT.

what do you want to prove by that replay?
If anything at all, it just shows how fast pumas are destroyed, as opposed to most players saying it's a no brainer to micro it in order to destroy shermans.
It's a 42 minutes match, of course there will be a lot of vehicles. You had more shermans than he had pumas.

The replay was posted to show how easy okw can get vehicles and tanks, and it clearly shows that.

To the contrary of your claim the replay shows how hard it is to kill a puma. The first puma rushes into my base, takes lots of small arms fire and bunker mg fire before going down to 4 at grenades. This unit shows up 6 minutes into the match and can take this much damage before going down. Other pumas constantly take damage and escape with ease. If I did not get shermans (fast tank) I would have had a big problem against his puma spam.

And correction I did not get more shermans than his pumas.

Then whats your opinion about the us flak track?

what about it?

Then whats your opinion about the us flak track? I think people complain a bit to much about its ai abilities but to be honest the ai abilities of the puma are not worth mentioning to anyone who uses some form of AT.

it just means even if you are to use counters like bazookas/ptrs + AT nades, infantry will still get cut down by the pintle mg. so considering the time it takes for infantry AT to deal with the puma, the puma can reverse away after inflicting some model losses and go back for free repairs. its an effective bleeding tool.

it can also circle AT guns and gun them down. 8-11 dps is pretty significant considering pumas have the speed to flank and smoke to gtfo. so long as it has no engine damage, pumas are generally difficult to take down with just infantry+AT guns.

well considering its timing and cost, it should function like a beefed up 222. also, why would a medium tank be its hardest counter? the puma is actually meant to be a counter to medium tanks in my opinion. its penetration makes it way overkill for light vehicles.

i think the puma does need a nerf, but these arent the reasons why.

timing/cost wise is a bad argument. assuming a puma rush strat, considering the building is only 40fuel + the unit itself at 70fuel. taking into account the 1st 40 fuel is going to be used to tech, a puma only really costs 70 fuel. with 66% okw fuel rate, 70 * 1.33 = 93.1 fuel. 93.1 fuel for a such an efficient unit is a steal. the timing to get pumas can be extremely early.

compared to the 1st medium tank that the soviet gets using a t1 strat, initial 40fuel gone to t1, additional 15 fuel gone to scout car. thats 55 fuel lost to crucial structure and unit. now to tech for t3 which is 120 fuel and finally the t34 itself at 100 fuel, it takes 120+100+15 = 235fuel for the 1st t34, compared to 93.1 fuel for the 1st puma.

now it really depends on how the early game is played out. if the okw is a fairly newbie player, an experienced soviet player can easily deny him fuel and push him back, the puma wont save him. if both sides are experienced, the okw player can fight an equal battle using volks, rakenten and sturms, stall out for 94 fuel and the puma is out which can be used to counter surviving scout cars, immune to sniper fire and provide infantry support fire.

which now the soviet is forced into an uphill battle, if he were to play a t1 t2 build, he will have no mobile counters to the puma, the okw will still have initiative and field control and gets stuka next to counter support teams/infantry. if he opts for a t34 to counter it, pumas can still maintain field presence with schreck support and be a credible threat to the t34. just up to here, there is a huge fuel cost that the soviet player must cough out just to maintain his position against the puma or get rolled over. all these, not taking into account manpower differences.

experienced okw players know this and they take advantage of it.

it can also circle AT guns and gun them down. 8-11 dps is pretty significant considering pumas have the speed to flank and smoke to gtfo. so long as it has no engine damage, pumas are generally difficult to take down with just infantry+AT guns.

im surprised youre having trouble with pumas countering your AT guns. 8-11 dps is really not very impressive. thats about as dangerous as a squad of combat engineers decrewing your zis. can it inflict a slow bleed by kiting infantry or harassing units with no AT? absolutely, but its not going to be wiping AT guns unless you leave them unsupported. if a puma is wiping your AT, a 222 with panzer tactician could do the same, but it comes much sooner and is cheaper. id much rather risk a 15 fuel scout car than a 70 fuel puma for the chance to kill an AT gun.

the problem with the puma is not its AI, its the speed combined with vet 0 smoke

timing/cost wise is a bad argument. assuming a puma rush strat, considering the building is only 40fuel + the unit itself at 70fuel. taking into account the 1st 40 fuel is going to be used to tech, a puma only really costs 70 fuel. with 66% okw fuel rate, 70 * 1.33 = 93.1 fuel. 93.1 fuel for a such an efficient unit is a steal. the timing to get pumas can be extremely early.

compared to the 1st medium tank that the soviet gets using a t1 strat, initial 40fuel gone to t1, additional 15 fuel gone to scout car. thats 55 fuel lost to crucial structure and unit. now to tech for t3 which is 120 fuel and finally the t34 itself at 100 fuel, it takes 120+100+15 = 235fuel for the 1st t34, compared to 93.1 fuel for the 1st puma.

now it really depends on how the early game is played out. if the okw is a fairly newbie player, an experienced soviet player can easily deny him fuel and push him back, the puma wont save him. if both sides are experienced, the okw player can fight an equal battle using volks, rakenten and sturms, stall out for 94 fuel and the puma is out which can be used to counter surviving scout cars, immune to sniper fire and provide infantry support fire.

which now the soviet is forced into an uphill battle, if he were to play a t1 t2 build, he will have no mobile counters to the puma, the okw will still have initiative and field control and gets stuka next to counter support teams/infantry. if he opts for a t34 to counter it, pumas can still maintain field presence with schreck support and be a credible threat to the t34. just up to here, there is a huge fuel cost that the soviet player must cough out just to maintain his position against the puma or get rolled over. all these, not taking into account manpower differences.

experienced okw players know this and they take advantage of it.

spot on

I see most of time basic math error... IF OKW gets only 66% fuel income(in real life, it is circa 70%, not 66% because BASE HQ NON REDUCED F income), and the Puma F price is 70F, that is not correct numbers, 70F x 1.33 =93.1F. This WRONG. IF you want the right numbers, need see, IF OKW Puma fuel cost 70F, and you get 70%(again, NOT 66!!!) Fuel income, the 1% is your F price that in this case 70F = 70/70 =1, so the 100% = 100F. The OKW puma with 70% Fuel income, exactly 100 F for other 3 race. So PUMA is the SAME FUEL PRICE as a T34, and a bit more MP, so PUMA overall a expensiver unit than the russian med tanks...

Someone said here it's not a discution that will affect balance as a whole (in meta) because it's subject is "just a little nerf" for "one unit".

Well, there wasn't a balance discution related to raketenwerfer. It was just referring to one unit. Now, it performs like shit. It was not a balance discutions about the OKW infantry gun, it was just referring to one unit. Now, it has a reduced damage from 120 to 80. It was not a discution about balance related to wurframen eather. And the list can continue...

There is a progressive "war" carried against OKW units which are considered to be "OP". As I explained in one of my previous post, I myself can argue and maybe even prove that any OKW unit is OP. You name it. But isn't this normal? Why do you think the OKW Panther is better? Why do you think OKW Puma is better?
By continuing with this atitude, you will let a poor faction which is affected by the fuel shortage and by the ability to build caches whithout the only thing that balance its non-desirable supply situation: its powerfull units.

Let's make an imagination exercice for a change. Suppose we will nerf Puma and many other units that are "OP": sturmpios, fusiliers, JagdTiger, King Tiger, you name it. And in exchange, OKW will receive its normal fuel income back PLUS the ability ti build caches. Would this be a preferable situation?

You have to make up your minds. You cannot continue asking nerfs for each and everyone OKW unit and let the supply situation as it is, otherwise the imbalance occurence is right ahead.

And stop thinking that people would chose Axis (like 90% people searching for Axis.... 10% people searching for Allied... bullshit!) because it's "cheesier". No matter how much harder will be the Axis gameplay most of the people will still search to play with Axis and when Axis will become unplayable, they will quit the game.
In fact, what I want to say here, is that nerfing, nerfing nerfing OKW or Ostheer units its not the way to make people have balanced prefferences.

I see most of time basic math error... IF OKW gets only 66% fuel income(in real life, it is circa 70%, not 66% because BASE HQ NON REDUCED F income), and the Puma F price is 70F, that is not correct numbers, 70F x 1.33 =93.1F. This WRONG. IF you want the right numbers, need see, IF OKW Puma fuel cost 70F, and you get 70%(again, NOT 66!!!) Fuel income, the 1% is your F price that in this case 70F = 70/70 =1, so the 100% = 100F. The OKW puma with 70% Fuel income, exactly 100 F for other 3 race. So PUMA is the SAME FUEL PRICE as a T34, and a bit more MP, so PUMA overall a expensiver unit than the russian med tanks...

tell me if that 7 fuel difference, makes a difference to the 235fuel difference a soviet player has to cough out.

regardless of minor error, because okw takes 2/3 the fuel, the simple conversion is to multiply the unit costs by 1.33 to simulate the slow rate. its not the most accurate to the perfect demical place, but it should be sufficient to show my point.

still my point still stands.

OKW does not need to invest fuel in any dedicated unit before the puma, their infantry is enough strong and versatile.
You can easily have a mix a sturmpio + mg34 + falss/fusiliers + volkshreck with a raken behind to counter any USF/soviet early strat. Since all those units are from T0 or call-in, the fuel investment in it is pretty much equal to zero.

Soviet and USF have to invest in some fuel sink upgrade to maintain a field presence.
M3 + doctrinal jeep
Basic squad upgrades for bars and nades + medic for USF

The Raketenwerfer is a fine unit, i think, especially with vet.

Good reload time, avarage penetration, can retreat/garrisoned(unique both) and with veterancy gain camo, first strike double damage, more range, and reduced reload time make this unit for me on of the best AT gun with VET in the game, without tech cost. For trade, you have a little shorter range, and cone, than other guns, without basic green cover, so you need make sandbags with basic Volks, OR garrisoned. It is balanced, i think.

The OKW flak HT, it is bugged, if he CAN shoot the enemy, not the high terrain-obstacles, would be a perfect unit, but not yet, his ballistic weapon model is bugged, and conjunction with a ridiculous setup/pack up time, really a shit unit, i hope this would be fixed.

I see here a lot good players, who wants decrease the Puma AI(what is i think, mediocre, Stuart or all med tanks have more AI power), but i dont know, in OKW vs Soviet MU, what unit need to be playing the anti SU sniper team counter role.

I see above mentioned KÜBEL(it is just LOL, T1 and M3?, or Guards? or the simply fact, this unit CANT kill anything with his DPS on the move?), or Panzerfusiliers( who has a doctrinal choice, for not cheap 90 muni G43 investment, if you want some DPS while you move)and this not a real counter too, because the proper used sniper teams, can bleed the shit out of you, with his longer 50 range vs your 35 with 2 members squads, behind the frontline conscript or/and Guards/ST wall, and/or from a safety garrison. The only hardcounter for a 3 Sniper team open as OKW is the Luchs, who is i feel most of time arrive too late, and now YET, the only on time available soft-med counter option as OKW, the PUMA, whom want most of players in this topc his AI ability decrease. I think, it is bad idea.

tell me if that 7 fuel difference, makes a difference to the 235fuel difference a soviet player has to cough out.

regardless of minor error, because okw takes 2/3 the fuel, the simple conversion is to multiply the unit costs by 1.33 to simulate the slow rate. its not the most accurate to the perfect demical place, but it should be sufficient to show my point.

still my point still stands.

Enough with your maths. Aren't you ashamed ?

This post is plagued with whiners who can't do maths. Seriously ? Did you even read the goddamn numbers i brought up earlier in the topic ? 66% fuel income means Puma costs 70 * 1.5 fuel, and it is 105fu, not 93. And to the previous guy who quoted only a part of my calculations just to feel better about himself, yes, it doesn't take into account ammo conversion, which brings the real cost of a Puma to about 95fu (+ losing 50% of your ammo while doing so).

Not saying the unit is overperforming or underperforming, i let the competent people discuss that matter, but if you bring numbers, at least make sure you don't spread bullshit because you fail at maths.

PS: Since blaming someone's knowledge without at least giving a hint for improving is not fair, then i'll explain you how it works: to reach 100% from 66%, you have to apply a 50% increase, 66 * 1.5 = ~100. The ratio you have to apply to every OKW cost is therefore 1.5.

tell me if that 7 fuel difference, makes a difference to the 235fuel difference a soviet player has to cough out.

regardless of minor error, because okw takes 2/3 the fuel, the simple conversion is to multiply the unit costs by 1.33 to simulate the slow rate. its not the most accurate to the perfect demical place, but it should be sufficient to show my point.

still my point still stands.

Wongtp, i dont want flame war, but your math again, and again fail. You spaeak above 235 F difference, between the firts Puma and first T34. This is WRONG too. First, the M3 is not the proper unit, what you count on, a simple-straight first Puma-first T34 tech build price comparison, i think, because i can count on the OKW T1 building 40 F price, for Crucial HEALING, what you can buy only for Manpower, etc etc... It is non sense, i hope we can agree for this.

You count on the starter 50Fuel for the Russian tech price, and not for the starting 40 Fuel for OKW. The right formula here : OKW start with 40 F, he can deploy for this the T2 building, where can build 1. puma, for a RUS price EXACTLY 100 F. So the OKW firts Puma is 100F. The RUS side, can buy T1, for 40F, but RUS starting with 50F, so you have yet 10 after you buy t1, and you need buy your t3, for 120 fuel, and first T34, for 100. IN MY math, this difference between is the first Puma/t34 is EXACTLY 110 FUEL and NOT 235. I hope this help for you understand this a bit.

Enough with your maths. Aren't you ashamed ?

This post is plagued with whiners who can't do maths. Seriously ? Did you even read the goddamn numbers i brought up earlier in the topic ? 66% fuel income means Puma costs 70 * 1.5 fuel, and it is 105fu, not 93. And to the previous dick who quoted a part of my calculations just to feel better about himself, yes, it doesn't take into account ammo conversion, which brings the real cost of a Puma to about 95fu (+ losing 50% of your ammo while doing so).

Not saying the unit is overperforming or underperforming, i let the competent people discuss that matter, but if you bring numbers, at least make sure you don't spread bullshit because you fail at maths.

you are right, if soviet/us gets 25fuel/min, the okw equivalent is 25 * 0.66 = 16.5. okw will then need 4.24mins to save 70 fuel. the equivalent for soviet fuel rate in 4.24mins = approx 106 fuel. my apologies.

still im not ashamed because my point still stands, we are talking about a massive 225 - 105 = 120 fuel difference, care to refute that instead?

Wongtp, i dont want flame war, but your math again, and again fail. You spaeak above 235 F difference, between the firts Puma and first T34. This is WRONG too. First, the M3 is not the proper unit, what you count on, a simple-straight first Puma-first T34 tech build price comparison, i think, because i can count on the OKW T1 building 40 F price, for Crucial HEALING, what you can buy only for Manpower, etc etc... It is non sense, i hope we can agree for this.

You count on the starter 50Fuel for the Russian tech price, and not for the starting 40 Fuel for OKW. The right formula here : OKW start with 40 F, he can deploy for this the T2 building, where can build 1. puma, for a RUS price EXACTLY 100 F. So the OKW firts Puma is 100F. The RUS side, can buy T1, for 40F, but RUS starting with 50F, so you have yet 10 after you buy t1, and you need buy your t3, for 120 fuel, and first T34, for 100. IN MY math, this difference between is the first Puma/t34 is EXACTLY 110 FUEL and NOT 235. I hope this help for you understand this a bit.

I think you can skip the Medi Truck completely, and you have to, if you want to rush a Puma, so you can't count on the first 40 fuel going into T2 rather than T3 into balancing of the unit.