Foucs on the details, Relic, Plz

okay lets give you a brief example of why this is utter bullshit:


you go to a hooker and pay her for a blowjob and/or sex. she fails to give you an orgasm and you are not satisfied. she then proceeds and links you to a blog where another hooker unable to give orgasm whines about how hard (hehe) it is to please customers and how they dont know the complexity of an orgasm.

that shit still doesnt give you what you paid for. just because i rant here doesnt mean i dont understand that it is a very complex thing to do.

quite frankly i dont care. they are hired professionals and have to do their job like everyone else

it's not that black and white is it? love this black and white/naive ways of looking at things.

Relic put out this product hoping it will satisfy ppl who buy them. they did not promise to satisfy you or blow you surprisingly.

you are dissatisfied? too bad, buyers be aware.

I got your idea,pretty surprised when heard out those bugs about DOW2

Yes this exact thing happened quite often in DoW2 (MG facing wrong way). Plenty of other totally unexplainable things also, often community members had to dig through the files to fix them. Relic programming has an element of the arcane arts where the unexpected happens. It's not sooo bad in COH2, you shouldn't compare with SC2 or LoL etc because these games are extremely simple, even as simple as decade old games like BroodWar or WC3 for example.

Optimisation has gone to shit though.

I don't understand what we are arguing about.

Is the game in a state fit for ESL? No.

Should Relic be focusing on fixing those bugs so it is? Yes.

Should the game run better than it currently does? Of course, it runs worse than when COH2 was released, and since then I've expected huge optimisation, which hasn't happened.

It could be better but as is it is passable for ESL tournament, the best player still wins most of the time.

I have seen huge SC2 tournaments won by pure unbeatable cheese and everybody accepts it because 'OMG BLIzzard saving esports Day9 Jesus build order win'. Also thing like mutalisk stacking in broodwar and loads of other exploits and cheeses which didn't stop that game.

Also it's funny because whilst telling relic to focus on the details the OP spelt the first word of his title wrong. (well more ironic, I'm not having a go, my post is also full of errors).

It could be better but as is it is passable for ESL tournament, the best player still wins most of the time.

I have seen huge SC2 tournaments won by pure unbeatable cheese and everybody accepts it because 'OMG BLIzzard saving esports Day9 Jesus build order win'. Also thing like mutalisk stacking in broodwar and loads of other exploits and cheeses which didn't stop that game.

Also it's funny because whilst telling relic to focus on the details the OP spelt the first word of his title wrong. (well more ironic, I'm not having a go, my post is also full of errors).

HAHA, well spotted!

...interesting topic...

personally I have an ambivalent view on it.

First there is a game which provides several hours of "fun & enjoyment" for an investment of approximately $ 25. This applies to all the People who complain about the game as well. Comparing this to other "enjoyments" you have to pay for you get quite much for the Dollar. So there is actually no valid reason to bitch as hard as some people do.

The second aspect is that relic aims quite high in comparison to what they actually have delivered, as well as beeing able to deliver in the future (that is only my personal Impression of past Events). They aim for high stake e-sports while there are things in the game which can decide the outcome of the game regardless of individual Player skill, e.g. mg-bug or okw-base destruction arty. That does not match any e-sports claim at all.

First there is a game which provides several hours of "fun & enjoyment" for an investment of approximately $ 25. This applies to all the People who complain about the game as well. Comparing this to other "enjoyments" you have to pay for you get quite much for the Dollar. So there is actually no valid reason to bitch as hard as some people do.

Certainly. Compare it with the hooker example provided earlier and the amount of $$ / min spent

Yeah, I've definitely ot my money's worth from CoH2.

But as for being ready for ESL - imagine Adidas made a bad football for the World Cup. One that would sometimes spin strangely and fly unpredictably. Yes, the better team would probably win (#adapt,lol) but would it be good for the observers?

ESL is about people watching. Currently I don't think CoH2 is very enjoyable to watch. Same strats every time, buggy moments... Meh.

Yeah, I've definitely ot my money's worth from CoH2.

But as for being ready for ESL - imagine Adidas made a bad football for the World Cup. One that would sometimes spin strangely and fly unpredictably. Yes, the better team would probably win (#adapt,lol) but would it be good for the observers?

ESL is about people watching. Currently I don't think CoH2 is very enjoyable to watch. Same strats every time, buggy moments... Meh.

Adidas did make a crap ball for the SA world cup in 2010. Germany got to play with it all year in the Bundesliga which is why they did so well there, and eventually built a platform for them to win this time around (Germany still have more access to the WC balls than other countries, they use it for the Pokal/cup matches IIRC).

Actually, sports have a lot of bad decisions and RNG, on top of that bribery and biased officials, drug use etc. Giving Arjen Robben a penalty in the last minute of injury time is far far worse than an MG setting up the wrong way. I still think Relic have things to iron out but I dont think it will ever be perfect, and neither are real sports.

A bit of reading for you
http://mrlizard.com/rants/why-havent-they-fixed-this-bug/

Maybe you'll understand it has nothing to do with Relic, but yay whatever, you won't even take the time to read that link. Still i can agree that some bugs have been there for a long time, yet you blame the wrong people.

Amen to that! Finally, someone else who is in the clue about software/games development!

ESL is about people watching. Currently I don't think CoH2 is very enjoyable to watch. Same strats every time, buggy moments... Meh.

This is more my concern currently for ESL. Nearly every game i play or watch is exactly the same strategy with very little variation. Currently there are too many units, abilities and commanders that are under performing/completely useless.

I understand that meta is always going to start to lean towards some strategies over others but it feels very stale at the moment.

Its not the customers/consumers concern or problem, what professional developers have to deal with.

But the buck does come from, and stop, with them.

If a customer/consumer doesnt like the product or its development, they have two options:
1) Complain
2) Stop using the product

I strongly discourage anyone from "attacking" customers/consumers who are excercising the first option, because that just urges them to instead therafter select the second.

I agree that a "bugfix" dedicated patch pass should be an urgent priority before ESL.
In many ways, that the game functions, as bugfree as possible, takes priority over balance.

Having said that, if you look at patch history, each one contains bugfixes. Its a gradual process.

What is unfortunate though, is the apparent rate at which new bugs are also appearing.
Sometimes culminating in a 1 step forward, 2 steps back situation.

Ive also noticed a concerning degree of necessary fixes to really silly things recently that should not have gone live, or wrong, in the first place. Really elementary things, like the discovery that Acceleration stat was being completely ignored, which I found particularly disconcerting.

If Relic has the resources, I would strongly urge more professional testing, either by employing more testers, or by improving and making more efficient and directed the testing process so as to ensure, as much as possible, that bugs or unintended numerical value accidents are detected as early as possible so there is time to address them.

Also, with all due respect, Devs should perhaps pay a little more attention to what values they are inputting.
Reading between the lines on patch notes, there is a bit of laziness and too much human error creeping in.
Double and triple check, that you got it right, before submitting it finally and moving on to next issue.
Call it "quality control", or "pride in your work", doesnt matter what, but do it.
Its beginning to tarnish the reputation of the company as a game developer house, and breaking elements of the game that are not really technically a serious or difficult issue to enact, just silly mistakes.

Also, relating to the community tester cadre. You dont need to be their "friends". Give them as specific and direct criteria for what you are looking for, and listen to those who raise issues that the mass of testers may not, for one reason or another, actually have any informed basis to comment on, even though they mouth on and on about it without actually having tried it themselves. A community test program is not an "elite buddy group", its an arena to push the product as hard as possible, in as many ways as possible, and deliver the hard news, as directly as possible. Your community managers handle the PR. Devs, you just worry about squeezing them as hard as you can to give you the hard feedback you need. And to community testers, stop considering the program as a "privileged arena to see upcoming stuffs" and rub shoulders with Devs. Instead, break the living hell out of it, no matter if you win or lose.

As a severe anecdote of evidence to this, the last nights Rewind event between BartonPL and VindicareX showcased a completely unexpected axtion from BartonPL (this guy is infamous for bending the system to its absolute limits, time and time again), that would have been absolutely disastrous had it happened during the upcoming ESL Cup big $$$ Final match.

Anyways.

Good luck, and Godspeed, Relic!
Your gonna need it to iron out the kinks on such an imminent and important deadline!

imagine this: (example 1)

a intense battle is going on, in a tourney that gives the winner thousands of dollars, player A has a few grens or whatever and a mg, player B has hordes of infantry flooding the map. not a problem since the mg will stop the communist flood, but wait! what is this? why did player A set his mg in the wrong direction? oh never mind that was just the bug that has been implemented for a higher gaming experience. lets retreat this mg to save it, oh no you dont, what about your troops paking up the mg while the guy packing it gets shot and the animation starts again. aaaaah finally it is packed up, but why is he just standing there? now it is moving, oh noeeeeeees it is running in the wrong direction and gets killed. that is a shiny new MG for player B, NICE!

Example 2:
the fat chick standing in line at burger king waiting for you to finish her xtra mega tripple fatass chesseburger doesnt care if you cant flip the patties because your hand feels so tense from wanking of the night before, or because your iq is too low to turn on the oven. she paid 2.99$ to become even more fat and nothing else matters.


okay lets give you a brief example of why this is utter bullshit: (example 3)

you go to a hooker and pay her for a blowjob and/or sex. she fails to give you an orgasm and you are not satisfied. she then proceeds and links you to a blog where another hooker unable to give orgasm whines about how hard (hehe) it is to please customers and how they dont know the complexity of an orgasm.

OMFG Hahahahaha!!! I think my kidneys died a little from reading those examples!

Anyways, welcome to the forums. I hope I see more of your posts.

Adidas did make a crap ball for the SA world cup in 2010. Germany got to play with it all year in the Bundesliga which is why they did so well there, and eventually built a platform for them to win this time around (Germany still have more access to the WC balls than other countries, they use it for the Pokal/cup matches IIRC).

You from Argentina?

They aim for high stake e-sports while there are things in the game which can decide the outcome of the game regardless of individual Player skill, e.g. mg-bug or okw-base destruction arty. That does not match any e-sports claim at all.

Very well put. This is an absolute issue.

You from Argentina?

No worse, I'm an englishman living in Germany since 8 years.

This is more my concern currently for ESL. Nearly every game i play or watch is exactly the same strategy with very little variation. Currently there are too many units, abilities and commanders that are under performing/completely useless....

This. no offense to SNF 5 itself but from quite a few i watched, it was same strat over and over again in most games. sure the game has come a log way but i do not want to see same strat repeated over and over in ESL.

No worse, I'm an englishman living in Germany since 8 years.

This was actually my 2nd guess. That 4:1 was totally decided by the ball.

This was actually my 2nd guess. That 4:1 was totally decided by the ball.

Well it would have been 2:2 at half time with England playing the better if the referee gave goals which were 1m over the line. Also how was Kloses first goal not a foul. But I have to hand it to Germany, they have done well.

Anyway back on topic, it just goes to show that even in such an almighty game like football, there is so much bugged out shit that happens due to referee mistakes, it almost decides every game. It's like somebody losing at COH2 then using a drophack (e.g. Suarez handball in that world cup that stopped an african team from reaching the semis).

This. no offense to SNF 5 itself but from quite a few i watched, it was same strat over and over again in most games. sure the game has come a log way but i do not want to see same strat repeated over and over in ESL.

+1.

ESL will flounder given COH2 is played by the same 10 people who use the same cheese or spam strats that they can exploit from the patch/OP unit/DLC of the day.

It is what is unfortunately.

I think the core of COH2 is too fundamentally broken to be repaired at this time - especially so long after it's initial release to change.