Panther Rework Idea

The Panther is 175 FU + tech costs, which is a lot to pay for something that's only effective vs. tanks. I don't think it performs like a 175 FU tank hunter should, especially compared to the Jackson, both in a vacuum and for factions as a whole. The key word here is tank hunter. I think that in its current state, the title "tank hunter" attached to the Panther is a misnomer, and at the moment it isn't particularly useful for the Ostheer, which is why we continue to see Tiger spam. If you don't believe me, just think about how often you see an Ostheer Panther in game.

Me personally, I'd much rather have the Panther reflect a more glass cannon approach. As in, comparable offensive abilities to the Jackson (at only 50 range, anything more would be too strong) but better HP and armor (like that of the Panzer IV) to justify its price point. That's a true tank hunter. It would have so much more use for the Ostheer in combating heavy tanks like ISUs and IS-2s. Of course, it would take a lot of tweaking so that it wouldn't be OP, but for 175 FU, a tank hunter that's weak against infantry should be a punishing unit, which it really isn't at the moment.

Don't think I've forgotten about the OKW! Seeing that the Puma works very well for the OKW as a cost effective light vehicle/medium tank hunter unit, and remains relevant even in the late game, a Panther for the OKW like the one I described would be bigger and badder Puma, but at a much higher price tag, rewarding good micro and punishing bad micro, being a glass cannon for what you pay.

Again, reworking a unit like this takes a lot of tweaking to prevent it from being UP/OP, but until it's reworked Ost late game is going to be continually dominated by Tiger spam, especially now that the Panzerwerfer got nerfed.

In bullet points (sort of TL;DR),
the ideal Panther (at the current 175 FU price tag) is:
-Comparable offensive stats to the Jackson, but keep the range at 50 to keep it from being a mini Elefant, maybe even 45 or 40 if it becomes an issue, so it's not so much of a sniper tank as it is a flanker/hunter, but I think that 50 range is pretty good for it
-Armor and HP equal to or around that of the Panzer IV, we don't want this to be a particularly tough tank
-Keep speed, acceleration and cost values the same

What this means is:
-At 175 FU, not exactly spammable, but still very strong, particularly offensively, which it should be
-Much more micro rewarding as a "tank hunter" and actually fulfills this role; it hits hard, moves fast, and if you keep it out of range/away from damage it can be extremely rewarding. Right now it has stats in all of the wrong places, except for its speed; its RoF is abysmal, damage is same as other Ost tanks, and accuracy is poor, especially on the move, but it has a lot of health and armor...? How is that a tank hunter? It's more of a bruiser with those kind of stats, like a Tiger Lite except more nimble and bad vs. infantry.
-If somehow spammed, only has the vitality at or around that of a Panzer IV and is still weak vs. infantry, meaning AT guns and engine crits will tear these things to shreds, not to mention they would still be pretty bad vs. infantry.

True TL;DR
In my opinion, the Panther is not very effective in its current role and can hardly be classified as a tank hunter, and I think that it should be more of a glass cannon, sacrificing its health and armor for much more offensive power like that of a Jackson, to justify its 175 FU price tag and make Ostheer T4 truly useful in all game modes again.

How do you guys feel about this? Even if you don't like the comparisons/stats I've thrown out there, i.e. comparable offensive power to the Jackson but with more HP and armor (you might feel it would be too strong), do you at least think that the direction of the Panther to a glass cannon unit would be better for it? Why or why not?

I think it's fine in it's current state.
Though the damage could be buffed a little bit.

I also don't think it's the panther itself who isn't good, it's the teching costs that come along with it that make it not so attractive for me.

I agree with you kreatiir, once Panthers hit Vet 2/3 and get their HP (or is it Armour now?) and reload Buff, they become fairly dependable, especially the Okw one.

Other than the teching costs I think it's due to the fact by the time a Panther can come out, Allies usually have enough Infantry/Set up AT + Overperforming Medium Tanks out that can more than deal with it.

That feel when you are half asleep and mean to hit edit but hit quote by accident.

*That feel when you are half asleep and mean to hit edit but hit quote instead*

OKW has enough glass cannons. I don't want PE Syndrome where every vehicle is a class cannon and the only reliable units are massed infantry.

I'm with Kreatiir.

Additionally, historical wise (i know, i know) it would be backwards if the Panthers 75mm gun did 220 damage for example (more damage than larger caliber guns) and had weak front armour.

I've said it a fair amount. I really think the only thing the panther needs is a durability buff. Increase its health so that it can justify its role. You can't mass produce them like the bulk of the medium tanks, but their function is similar. As a result, they should be able to withstand some firepower.

Which is ironic, because they were designed to be mass produced in bulk to replace the Panzer IV, which never quite happened as the Panzer IV remained in service in large numbers to the very end.

What kreatiir said. Its the nost durable medium tank, and that improves at vet 2.

The panther historically had heavier frontal armor than the tiger

Its gun also penetrated more armor

But its gun also did less damage

This is fairly simple guys. It's a medium-heavy hybrid tank that is excellent at fighting tanks and decent at fighting infantry. That's how it is in the game and how it should be (although perhaps its AI could be buffed but otherwise its bloody fine)

"Fine in the current state" - I wouldn't say this about Panther. Further, I really don't undrstand why sould be differences between OKW Panther and WM Panther UNLESS they specificaly name them more accurately: For instance one is Panther D and the other Panther G.

I see Panther's problem solvable in a few ways:
1. Let it like this, but decrease costs ffs. And not by 5 fu and 10 mp. Otherwise it will be as used as until now (especially in WM side); It will be more "spamable" but also easy to dispose of it, like it is now;
2. Let the cost like it is now, but increase the AI capacities (closer to P4 while not being the same); this way, people will be tempted to build it, because it will be a stronger all around tank than P4 and it will justify its price, while not "spamable"
3. Let the cost like it is now, but give it more health. This way, it's survivability will improve and, again, it will justify its price while not "spamable".
4. Let the cost like it is now but rework the features that are not verry visible in a toe to toe combat, but will slightly increase its performance: ROF, scatter, rotation speed.

The idea is: something must be done.

Wehr and Ober Panthers sould have the same stats. Or like Heini said, they should be differentiated with an "Ausf. X, Y"(which would imply more differences than the subtle ones that actually exist between the two).

That and a rework of Wehr tiering costs should bring the tank to its design role, a lategame tank hunter. Wehr Panther lacks accuracy, which, when coupled with it's poor RoF, is truly a pain. I don't think it needs more, but if a health or armor or damage buff is included in the whole package, then why not.

Wehr and Ober Panthers sould have the same stats. Or like Heini said, they should be differentiated with an "Ausf. X, Y"(which would imply more differences than the subtle ones that actually exist between the two).

That and a rework of Wehr tiering costs should bring the tank to its design role, a lategame tank hunter. Wehr Panther lacks accuracy, which, when coupled with it's poor RoF, is truly a pain. I don't think it needs more, but if a health or armor or damage buff is included in the whole package, then why not.

I think model Ausf G is slithy different than current model in game.

"Fine in the current state" - I wouldn't say this about Panther. Further, I really don't undrstand why sould be differences between OKW Panther and WM Panther UNLESS they specificaly name them more accurately: For instance one is Panther D and the other Panther G.

I see Panther's problem solvable in a few ways:
1. Let it like this, but decrease costs ffs. And not by 5 fu and 10 mp. Otherwise it will be as used as until now (especially in WM side); It will be more "spamable" but also easy to dispose of it, like it is now;
2. Let the cost like it is now, but increase the AI capacities (closer to P4 while not being the same); this way, people will be tempted to build it, because it will be a stronger all around tank than P4 and it will justify its price, while not "spamable"
3. Let the cost like it is now, but give it more health. This way, it's survivability will improve and, again, it will justify its price while not "spamable".
4. Let the cost like it is now but rework the features that are not verry visible in a toe to toe combat, but will slightly increase its performance: ROF, scatter, rotation speed.

The idea is: something must be done.

Hmm, even for all that options it's still going to be underdog... Im 100% sure i wont build Panther if he gets better against infantry, or price reduction. I got tiger for that, and he can do both job better and safer(against armor and infatry). Only way for the panther to work is to make him proper tank hunter. More DPS, better accuracy and maybe small buff to HP. I mean, ostheer needs proper tank hunter, PAK cant chase ISU or IS-2, same thing for stug. Heck, u can nerf Panther AI if that is what it takes to buff it versus armor.

I really don't see where all this panther hate comes from. You have to respect the tank, because it always takes a coordinated effort from infantry and ATG/Tanks to kill one.

Panther is a Medium tank with almost the cost of a Heavy tank. 490 Mp + 175 Fu (+ Teching cost)

Panther AI is poor, Panther AT is decent, but Panther is weak against AT guns and AT vehicles (making Tiger a better choice)

Relic staff will probably have game analysts, you know, people that use that kind of tools in where you can see lot's of numbers and ratios.

What is the % of tigers fielded compared to Wehr Panthers? What is the % of SU-85 compared to heavy tanks?

I prefer coh1 style. Limit on heavy call ins (1 Tiger in field, 1 Pershing) and better balance in T3-T4 units against heavy call ins.

I think model Ausf G is slithy different than current model in game.

The model ingame is the Ausführung A, the second variant of the Panther. You can see that on the MG port and the cupola. Also the shot trap at the gun mantle is still there, which was finally fixed with the Ausf. G. That being said, it would be nice to have an Ausführung G with more armor and HP replacing one of those Panthers.

The current Panther remains nerfed despite all of its opponents being buffed. Thus it will always underperform. I don´t think giving the Panther less survivability is good. That would be ridiculous and totally ignore the characteristics of the Panther, which was well protected - at least from the front. What´s needed is an increase in rate of fire. Neither should a 75mm deal more damage than a 122mm on the IS-2. What the long 75mm should excel at is penetration and rate of fire. Also the health you get at vet2 needs to be back at vet0.

TL DR;

- increase Rof
- give it it´s vet2 health back at vet0

Panther is a Medium tank with almost the cost and stats of a Heavy tank. 490 Mp + 175 Fu (+ Teching cost)

Fixed for you.

Panther AI is poor, Panther AT is decent, but Panther is weak against AT guns and AT vehicles (making Tiger a better choice)

Armor is supposed to be weak against anti armor weapons.
German armor is no exception to that regardless of the amount of mythology and mysticism around it being indestructible-it wasn't.

I really don't see where all this panther hate comes from. You have to respect the tank, because it always takes a coordinated effort from infantry and ATG/Tanks to kill one.

The question is how much bang you get for your buck. and simply put for the ost and okw their a lot more units that simply perform a lot better. especially the tiger. its good tank but not worth 175 fuel. it would be better if it was 145 fuel.

I just had a insane case of good Panther RNG. Okw Panther, taking on 2 SU85's kills one, gets out. Frontal engagement by both SU's and Panther.

Then it came back later to kill the other SU and 2 out of 3 Katyushas xD

Saying that I am using the 4% Armour and 5% Reload bulletins, I know it's barely anything but they really do help the Panther.

And then the next game 1 Jackson beat 1 Panther, was blizzard so they both got first shot roughly the same time.