Comparison of Kat & Stuka after heavy usage

the pwerfer is also pretty crazy. It unleashes all of its damage in one go, making it more effective than the katyusha.

About stuka:

Are you idiot enough ignoring the pinpoint accuracy, greater AoE and possibility to actually kill armor of these 6 rockets?

And for the pwerfer:

Are you ignorant enough ignoring the fact that all 10 rockets arrive pretty much at the same time as opposed to bursts of 4 over much longer time?

I'm not saying katy is fine, I'm merely pointing out your(not only obviously) hypocrisy.
What you have written about katiusha before, exactly the same applies to stuka and now pwerfer as it was stealth buffed as well.

Its a double standard discussion here.

If you ignorant enough saying Kat is not pinpoint accuracy in a screen-large area, there is no need to talk.

Damn, Relic really killed the game for Axis against Soviets, especially OKW trucks go down in just two barrages by the Katyusha - so basically in less than two minutes.

Relic should go back to leaving arty in the early COH2 stage, meaning that they were supporting tools and not these weapons of doom that they are right now. Though this really only applies to Katyusha and Stuka zu Fuss.

I hated the late game in COH1 as it always ended in arty spam and it seems we are going back to that bullshit.

I for one think Stuka and especially Katyusha should be nerfed, of course cost could be lowered a bit.

And I saw many times direct hit on Maxims, still have 3-4 dudes alive, but Katyusha can erased everything in their circle of death, including OKW base truck, Ostheer base.

I am shocked that you can't do basic multiplication, please don't bring this thread level to vetlolcake's.

The surface area of an 8 meter circle (AoE of Stuka) is roughly 75% greater than the surface area of a 6 meter circle (Katy AoE). Furthermore, Stukas do 25% more damage than Katy rockets. A stuka barrage of 6 rockets equals ~13 katy rockets, fired in rapid succession with high accuracy along a straight line.

But lets ignore the actual numbers and go by your evidence of "I SAW KATY KILL EVERYTHING AND STUKA CAN'T EVEN KILL MAXIM!".

The surface area of an 8 meter circle (AoE of Stuka) is roughly 75% greater than the surface area of a 6 meter circle (Katy AoE). Furthermore, Stukas do 25% more damage than Katy rockets. A stuka barrage of 6 rockets equals ~13 katy rockets, fired in rapid succession with high accuracy along a straight line.

But lets ignore the actual numbers and go by your evidence of "I SAW KATY KILL EVERYTHING AND STUKA CAN'T EVEN KILL MAXIM!".

German squads are smaller (with a few exceptions) and thus more vulnerable to AOE weapons to begin with. Also, going down the Stuka road is much more of a gamble for OKW then pushing a Katy. or two is for Soviets. Not to argue that the Stuka is not a very strong unit in its own right, but in this patch at least, the Katyusha is potentially gamebreaking, while the Stuka isnt.

Its a double standard discussion here.

Why? Just because both Stuka and Katyusha both have powerful barrages it does not in any way, shape or form imply that they are EQUALLY overpowered and what applies to one, should necessarily apply to the other. This is a total non-argument. Please refer to this post of mine for a bit of details.

With cooldown time included, and adding a bit to both sides to get into position and fire, you should actually be comparing somewhere around 24 to 28 of Kat's rockets to 6 Stuka's. Please everyone tell me now if that is ok in your book. (Deliberately not talking about Werfer here).

Kat saturates a large area, Stuka shoots in a precise line. As much as the line thing can be a blessing it depends on the enemy arranging its weapon teams and infantry in a line AND not moving too much once the rockets are fired. Compare with Kat's circle of doom. The AoE on Katyusha rockets is good enough that it damages everything in the area its rockets fall in (no unit in this area can reasonably escape undamaged or with small damage), which makes the effective area of denial a Katyusha can achieve much greater and longer than the Stuka, even if fired at longest range into FoW. Katyusha's 4 wave barrage does make it easier to retreat your infantry without getting the full brunt of it - but for slow or static positions that is a non-issue.

It was uesless before now they have overbuffed it hard, theres no defending its current state.

The stuka is fine.

How does one play against a Katyusha? Your infantry needs to not always move to be effective. This is a cover-based game and German inf benefit from sitting behind cover. So you need to retreat even before the rockets start dropping? With 2 Kats (which will rapidly become veterans) you can basically effect an insta-retreat every 30-40 seconds or so. That's THREE times more often than a single Stuka can do the same, even ASSUMING you must retreat every time you hear a Stuka (not true).

It is also more difficult to move your support weapons (paks, support guns) from Kat's circle of doom than it is from Stuka's salvo, IMO. Just one rocket dropping anywhere near the crew in the first salvo will result in crewmember animation shenanigans, which will spell the end for a veteran unit because you, in your endless Axis fanboy hubris, DARED put a support weapon into the range of a Katyusha.

Not again with this thread
Eventhough i´m waiting for a a new patch to fix it, just like everyone else.

Don't let me start on Katyushas. The unit was fine back in the day and then for some reasons Relic decided to nerf it into useless unit and after that they buffed it into OP unit it is now.
I don't understand Relics logic. Really I don't. I would like for someone from balance team to come and explain how they came up with this decision as I simply can't understand it.
What's more this unit still hasn't been adjusted despite its recent performance so it makes me wonder.
I lost multiple games against opponents that were much worse than me only because salvo after salvo of Katyusha barrage was able to destroy my Vetted army without any effort. Suddenly no one plays into call ins anymore despite earlier reassurances that this is the only way for Soviets to win.

Yes, I am getting frustrated. I don't think I won a single game when Katyusha was used on the opposite team.

I would be more interested to understand what process they go through with the testing. Seriously. I don't see how the Kat could have been tested with the current values and someone said - these are good. What are the steps. Who does the testing.

I've seen examples where 2 tanks are shown attacking each other. Is that done with the tested values for the same scenarios? Kat on Inf. Kat on Tanks. Kat on multiple units. Kat on Kat (ummmmmm)

I'm sure that Relic workers know by now the current issues with mobile arty in the game.

Starting a new thread that undoubtely will end in another fanboy-flame war isn't going to solve anything.

I would be more interested to understand what process they go through with the testing. Seriously. I don't see how the Kat could have been tested with the current values and someone said - these are good. What are the steps. Who does the testing.

I've seen examples where 2 tanks are shown attacking each other. Is that done with the tested values for the same scenarios? Kat on Inf. Kat on Tanks. Kat on multiple units. Kat on Kat (ummmmmm)

My guess: Someone saw that some of the Katyusha's were not equal to the Stuka's values. Basically whoever did this probably saw the exact same information someone posted in a coh2stats screenshot a page back. Needless to say that those stats are only a very small part of a unit's performance and therefore discussing on them alone is complete nonsense.
If people want to talk stats, then they should look at all of the stats of a unit. The same counts for whoever made the changes to the Katyusha: Changing or discussing values without understanding how they relate to other values does not make any sense and just leads to pointless trench warfare on the forums, basically just heaping lots of resentment on Relic.

My guess at the QA process involved in this process:
1. Katyusha is not very popular, must be UP (which it kind of was).
2. Stuka is complained about on the forums and seems to be popular with axis players, so it must be more effective (which it was).
3. Set some of Katyusha's stats = Panzerwerfer's/Stuka's stats. Only takes 5 minutes, go to lunch break early.
4. Insert Katyusha by console command, shoot it at something. Something seems to die. Effectivity of changes confirmed.
5. Upload patch. Go home early today, enjoy some summer sun.

Ok,I am sure this depiction is completely unfair and the people at Relic are surely doing a lot of work in tight time tables and the Katyusha changes are just a small portion of the entirety of work they are doing. However, for the love of god Relic, react a little bit faster when it is evident you messed up. I know a week is very little time to get something going in a corporate environment but for us short-sighted internet people it feels like an eternity.

Nerf katyusha and stuka and bring it in line with panzerwefer

Panzerwerfer is a good example of how rocket arty should be. You just don't see them because of how much it costs to get to t4. Reduce fuel cost for ostheer teching and increase fuel cost of ostheer buildings.

No they suck dick, but kat does need a nerf they are sick atm, i mean wtf were they thinking with this crazy ass buff?

The ladders are a mess atm because of these things lol..........

TBH Relic fail at balancing and do this every patch, in vanilla coh is was germans op 1 patch then sov then germans, it was never balanced at all.

People who moan about the Stuka are idiots, its 100 fuel and needs mech, so if they rush it they have no healing and if they build it late game they have no tanks..... OKW are fuel starved and the Stuka is a massive blow, not only that you can hear it a mile off and move or retreat....

It also dies in 2 shots so its not like its hard to kill either, and has pretty low range compare to the kat, the kat is just sickly OP! It cost 85 fuel and reloads fast as fuck!!!!

Another point with the Stuka is you have to aim it and half the time it bugs and doesnt fire just keeps asking you to aim it, the kat is click and go lol........

Panzerwerfer is very good, however hard to tell where it sits in terms of balance considering no one builds Wehrmacht tier 4.

The stukka has high damage and high AOE so if it hits it can do huge damage.
However then it fires in an easily dodged line (wtf?),the stukka should be changed to be more like the panzerwerfer, but firing 6 more powerful rockets and not in a line (at a lower damage and AOE than current).

The katyusha needs a slight AOE and damage nerf since in its current state it can easily kill OKW trucks and squad wipe full health retreating vet3 gren squads (note: allies with high AOE weapons is much more effective at squad wiping full squads than axis units with same AOE)

Replay: and versus the famous Katitoff personally

•  
  

  5

  VS

  Porygon Siu-King**

  C4Angel Katitoff

  Yes, Katyusha is fine

  by: Porygon map: Ettlebruck Station

  3

  -

Even he ignore my words, his personally experience can just tell

Replay: and versus the famous Katitoff personally

•  
  

  5

  VS

  Porygon Siu-King**

  C4Angel Katitoff

  Yes, Katyusha is fine

  by: Porygon map: Ettlebruck Station

  3

  -

Even he ignore my words, his personally experience can just tell

It's like finding a unicorn!


I also agree that Kat can stay as it is if it gets a huge nerf in other areas (options include: longer cool down, shorter range, less damage, slower salvos, higher cost, etc.). Powerful anti-blob tools are fine, but they need to have some drawbacks . Right now Kat has very few.

Katyusha used to be absolutely useless. I'd be OK with a slight damage nerf (back to 120 or w/e) or a cool down increase, or a reduction in the barrage area or something, but the thing feels useful for the first time since the launch of the game and it'd be a shame to see the Katy relegated to the unused toys pile again.

Whatever change they made to the Walking Stuka, it seems to have worked. It's still scary but no longer and ungodly machine of death.

I don't care if it was totally worthless in previous patch, it is NOT the reason buffing it into current insane level.

The Kat in early stage of vCOH2, was perfectly fine.

I never said its fine.

If you believe I did, please feel free to get the quote.

What I keep saying is, you can't say Stuka is fine and kat is not.
Either both are fine and are meant to oblierate infantry or both need to be toned down.