IS-2 Frontal Armor

I don't think it's just rng. It's rng and high armour. 3 paks to the front and 2 panthers in the rear (one of them a command panther) couldn't take out 1 of 3 IS-2s. They never tried to maneuver, just sat there and tanked all the shots while focusing down my tanks. We were focusing on one IS-2 and it never went below 25% hp.

I've never seen a tiger just shrug off multiple dedicated AT shots like that while at the same time obliterating squads with its 4.0 AOE.

It is just rng. High armor value still relies on rng. Rng controls it all.

A Tiger wouldn´t have bounced that many shots from a SU-85, Zis and T-34/85. StuGs with less range than a Su-85 and no turret should actually be able to somewhat reliably pierce through a heavy tanks armor. After all we see 85mms going through everything also.

The point was to show that it´s not just uncommon rng bad luck. I have those kind of bounces on a regular basis. Rng dependent but common, very common. And if one can park his tank unharmed in the middle of StuGs, Paks etc and pick them off without trouble, the game experience is bad.

I have had instances where people weren't paying attention to tigers for good few minutes and I pound on it from max range with SU-85 with more bounces than the video. Penetrations were less than 50%. I think I uploaded replay too, but it might be other version.

****Edit*****
Replay proof:
http://www.coh2.org/replay/18374/thanks-rng

Recently I discovered that PaK shoots reliably bounce from IS-2 frontal armour.

IS2 front armor is ridiculous, even panzerschreks are bouncing 90% of the time.

Pretty much everything except JT, KT, Ele and Pak43 bounce on IS2 front armor most of the time. The fact that it's quite mobile and can squad wipe adds to the problem, unlike extremely slow JT, KT etc.

theres only one commander with smoke and tigers. spearhead

Yeah, I checked after, sorry for the brainfart. Still, Blitz alone makes for greater survivability IMO, and IS-2 trades off its lower mobility for tougher frontal armor. Both units are well balanced, and the only two late-game heavies that do not warrant any change.

Also, does anyone have stats on pen chance of ZiS against Tiger vs pen chance of PaK vs IS-2? For comparison's sake, and assuming no abilities are used.

IS2 frontal armor needs a nerf.

Yeah, I checked after, sorry for the brainfart. Still, Blitz alone makes for greater survivability IMO, and IS-2 trades off its lower mobility for tougher frontal armor. Both units are well balanced, and the only two late-game heavies that do not warrant any change.

Also, does anyone have stats on pen chance of ZiS against Tiger vs pen chance of PaK vs IS-2? For comparison's sake, and assuming no abilities are used.

well ignoring blitz, is2 is actually more mobile in every way, especially rotation speed. i dont know how many times ive had a tiger decide to slowly rotate 90 degrees thanks to bad pathing.

pak has a 50-56% chance to pen is2 front armor.
zis has a 60-66% chance to pen tigers front.

is2 has a 63-83% chance to pen tigers front.
tiger has a 48-59% chance to pen is2s front.

Worst of all is it makes pz 4s completely useless,even 3-4.Since pz 4 and tiger are only viable armor for wehr its a problem.Pak takes too long to kill and most importantly can only be used defensively.So for pushing if ur opponent has is-2 and u don't have tiger u are done as ostheer at least in team games,unless ur teammates got a KT.Even then is-2 and tiger is equal fight..u don't really have some advantage.

If your going to make 3 or 4 of something to take out an IS2, panzerIV has to be one of the worst decisions, unless your going to actively get behind it. Otherwise your better off even with stugIII, since they have better penetration (last I checked at least).

Wait, were complaining about the FRONTAL ARMOR of one of the most heavily armored tanks in the WW2 and Korea?

If your going to make 3 or 4 of something to take out an IS2, panzerIV has to be one of the worst decisions, unless your going to actively get behind it. Otherwise your better off even with stugIII, since they have better penetration (last I checked at least).

No i mean in team games i sometimes go fast pz 4 vs americans and then spam them,because they are vulnerable to this.Then is-2 comes along from soviet guy and whole tank force is obsolete.Wtf.Against soviets pz 4 is always bad idea.

pak has a 50-56% chance to pen is2 front armor.
zis has a 60-66% chance to pen tigers front.

is2 has a 63-83% chance to pen tigers front.
tiger has a 48-59% chance to pen is2s front.

Let´s add RoF and whoever wants get it´s own conclusions

Pak40: 4s (a bit less but makes math quicker)
Vet2: -30%reload (3.13s)
Vet3: -10%reload + 30%pen (2.927s + 72.8%-65.87%)

Zis: 5.8s
Vet2: -30%reload (4.47s)
Vet3: -20%reload +30%pen (3.853s + 86.6%-78%)

Tiger: 5.25s
IS2: 6.65s
____________________

You need 6.5 penetrating shots (1040hp) to kill either tank.
____________________

Let´s take 10-20-30s of nonstop shooting

10s
OH: 1.9 Tiger and 2.5 of pak40 (3.2 - 3.4)
SU: 1.5 IS2 and 1.7 of zis (2.2 - 2.6)
20s
OH: 3.8 Tiger and 5 of pak40 (6.4 - 6.8)
SU: 3 IS2 and 3.5 of zis (4.5 - 5.2)
30s
OH: 5.7 shots of Tiger and 7.5 of pak40 (9.6 if vet2 - 10.3 if vet3)
SU: 4.5 shots of IS2 and 5.2 of Zis (6.7 if vet2 - 7.8 if vet3)

At this point and taking into account mid range
5 (53%) n 7 (53%) vs 4 (73%) n 5 (63%)
Expectation:
6pen (2.5+3.5) vs 6pen (3+3)
Conclusion:
Bless be the RNG gods.
____________________

Note: it´s far more common having a vet AT gun rather than vet2 heavies due to how fast they vet.
Note2: now i´m scared of vet3 zis.
Note3: guys, don´t forget to use TWP the next time you face an IS2.

Show Spoiler

Wait, were complaining about the FRONTAL ARMOR of one of the most heavily armored tanks in the WW2 and Korea?

is-2 also was a tank that if realism be taken into account loses head on vs the panther because its gun can't penetrate panther's frontal armor while panther can.And it lacks speed to flank panther.So short of an ambush it usually lost to panther..but thats not how its portrayed ingame is it?

I'm having some trouble understanding what your calculating. Specifically what's below the horizontal line. It looks like comparison of pak vs zis. Pak is way better.

is-2 also was a tank that if realism be taken into account loses head on vs the panther because its gun can't penetrate panther's frontal armor while panther can.And it lacks speed to flank panther.So short of an ambush it usually lost to panther..but thats not how its portrayed ingame is it?

This is only really possible when shooting at max or very long range. I'm pretty sure there is a distance or an angle which will invalidate this. Remember the projectiles fired over a long distance will arc and the penetration properties of any gun change based on the angle of what it's hitting. So the angle alone would likely allow a penetration if they could get it to impact at 90 degrees. If not, closing distance allows even a Sherman to penetrate thick armor.

All that BS aside, it is represented in the game now with the lerping calculations for penetration. Get closer and you stand a much better chance to penetrate. I think the values are not aggressive enough, but it is represented. My IS2's have bounced rounds off of panthers. Surely it's not exactly like real life, but we all can agree that's ok. Otherwise this game would have some really unfair encounters.

If your going to make 3 or 4 of something to take out an IS2, panzerIV has to be one of the worst decisions, unless your going to actively get behind it. Otherwise your better off even with stugIII, since they have better penetration (last I checked at least).

stug is really not a good counter to is2. you trade slightly better pen for durability and a turret. atleast a p4 can circle it to get to its rear armor

I'm having some trouble understanding what your calculating. Specifically what's below the horizontal line. It looks like comparison of pak vs zis. Pak is way better.

hes showing that the paks help even out the is2 vs tiger fight because they are better than zis.

is-2 also was a tank that if realism be taken into account loses head on vs the panther because its gun can't penetrate panther's frontal armor while panther can.And it lacks speed to flank panther.So short of an ambush it usually lost to panther..but thats not how its portrayed ingame is it?

Yea... except you are wrong and it could reliably penetrate panther front armor depending on amunition used.

Panthers 110mm against its BR-471B munitions guaranteed a penetrating hit at 60 degree sloped armor up to 1500meters, which is the range where panther had problems penetrating IS-2 frontal armor.

So you might want to rethink who needed to ambush who.

I'd say the in game relations between panthers and IS-2 tanks are rather accurate.

I'm having some trouble understanding what your calculating. Specifically what's below the horizontal line. It looks like comparison of pak vs zis. Pak is way better.

How many shots you expect to land on intervals of 10-20-30s, between () are the numbers for vetted AT guns.

hes showing that the paks help even out the is2 vs tiger fight because they are better than zis.

Exactly. Even if the Zis has better pen against the Tiger than the pak40 against the IS2, the numbers at the end are pretty even.

stug is really not a good counter to is2. you trade slightly better pen for durability and a turret. atleast a p4 can circle it to get to its rear armor

That's why I mentioned unless your going to go behind it. If you had to face IS2 from the front, stug has better chances to penetrate.

That's why I mentioned unless your going to go behind it. If you had to face IS2 from the front, stug has better chances to penetrate.

its really a negligible amount (26% vs 29%) but being able to take 1 less hit and not having a turret makes it not worth it at all.