Thoughts on Conscripts getting a 1x DP-28 upgrade

I'm not certain DPs are the answer, but conscripts do need help. Out of all the core infantry units (scripts, rifles, grens, volks), they are the only ones that have no way to properly scale. Molotovs and At nades don't count since everyone else gets an equivalent too. They become pure cannon fodder mid-late game, especially against OKW and its bevy of long-range elite infantry. Even PPShs are hit and miss, because they have a hard time surviving to make use of them in many cases.

And no, I don't think that because their name is ''conscript'', they should scale badly. Volksgrenadiers are a fancy name for ''we're scraping the bottom of the barrel'', yet they are proper combat units that have excellent veterancy and a solid AT option, as well as a grenade that doesn't need to be researched, while costing the same.

I'm not sure a weapon upgrade is what's needed. Maybe a squad size increase with vet 2 or 3, like for Rear Echelons? Something that increases their general durability so they can more reliably use abilities without being decimated in 3 seconds by incoming fire? Whatever it is, they need some sort of scaling mechanism. In the WFA meta of everyone having elite infantry at the 6-7 minute mark, the role of conscripts is severely limited.

As I said, they actually do "scale" thanks to be being 6man.

They soak and survive bettet than 4man units in mid-late game.

And as long as they have Merge and Oorah right from the start, its sort of hard to justify a later game advantage.

As I said, they actually do "scale" thanks to be being 6man.

They soak and survive bettet than 4man units in mid-late game.

And as long as they have Merge and Oorah right from the start, its sort of hard to justify a later game advantage.

And grenadiers have pfaust and rnades from the get go.

As long as they have that, I find it hard to justify the LMG upgrade.

Also, as the game progresses more numerous squads are not an advantage as vehicles wipe everything equally.
If that wasn't enough, their vet3 got changed and they have defensive bonus no more, so they die even faster then 4 men squads against small arms.
Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

While they definitely don't need DP, what you have written here is just a bias and double standards.

cons being able to upgrade 1 dp don't sound like a bad idea. would like to test out how they fair endgame cuz they need it

I think that conscripts on the third level vet should be converted into another unit (veterans, frontline soldiers) with other weapons and abilities.
This is stupid - hardened soldiers with third level vet still conscripts.

To be honest I really do not understand why some of you want to turn the Penal Battalions into a LONG RANGE UNIT, when they are designed from scratch to be a MID-RANGE UNIT.

SVT-40s are excellent at mid-range and are still strong close range, the flame-thrower upgrade makes Penals even more deadly at close range, on top of that SVT-40s are great when on the move and closing in on the enemy.

If you make them long range what's the point of upgrading to a flame-thrower? The same issue plays out with Combat engineers, as the flame-thrower synergises much better with pioneers and their MP-40s, making them a viable combat unit, it's not the case for combat engineers.

On the other hand, Conscripts use bolt-action rifles which are more accurate while static and at longer ranges, they are penalized when moving in, oorah is meant to be used to get closer to cover and shoot from there. Therefore the DP-28 synergises well with conscripts, and not at all with Penals.

Also, IRCC, you need TWO DP-28s to have the same damage output of a single LMG42, I think that's why Guards get two for 100 munitions. Therefore a single DP-28 for 60 munitions unlocked when either T3 or T4 is built seems fair, conscripts will still deal slightly less damage than LMG42 Grenadiers, considering also that they are much less accurate than Grendadier or Guards(I'm not a file digger I don't know all the modifiers).

I vote YES for giving conscripts a DP-28 as the Red Army needs decent non-doctrinal infantry to evolve from cheese support weapons spam tactics. Especially against amazing OKW infantry.

It goes without saying that if a conscript upgrades to the single DP-28 he should not be able to equip PPSH-41s.

I actually have a pretty solid opinion on this one guys. Ready?

No.

I was just bowled over in a 3v3 with two good friends (and good players) when we decided to try out the Axis. My god, Cons are damn dangerous even with rifles--when facing Volks.

Giving Cons a DP would absolutely pooch screw the OKW, especially now that Obers have been reduced in effectiveness. Out of boredom I spammed six Volks squads and was horrified at how easily a pair of BAR'd rifle squads (mixed faction game) ate through them with little effort.

TL;DR,no, Cons getting non-doctrinal LMGs is a bad idea.

Panzerfusiliers are also 6 man, doesn't stop them from having killer scaling. So do Airborne. Rifles and Volks are only 1 man behind and also scale extremely well. Plus, with all the high DPS infantry running amok in late game, 6 men just means you survive 1 second more to LMG fire at best. It's more useful against vehicles only to a small degree, since they bunch up so much AoE is still effective against them.

So yeah, since those 6 men have piss poor DPS and little survivability, I don't see how its an argument at all. Having more than 4 men doesn't stop other squads from scaling well.

Also, as the game progresses more numerous squads are not an advantage as vehicles wipe everything equally.

Explain to me how its better to have a 4man unit than a 6man unit in this situation.

I guess there is some magical game mechanic that makes 6man units not have an advantage as compared to 4man units from vehicles "wiping everything equally".

Go ahead. I'll wait. This will be fascinating, I'm sure.

And grenadiers have pfaust and rnades from the get go.

Nope. RNade requires BP1.

As long as they have that, I find it hard to justify the LMG upgrade.

grens are meant to scale. cons are not. the majority of soviet doctrines have elite infantry for a reason.

If that wasn't enough, their vet3 got changed and they have defensive bonus no more, so they die even faster then 4 men squads against small arms.
Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

maybe before calling people out, check your facts.

| | | | | | veterancy_rank: {
| | | | | | | experience_value: 1920f;
| | | | | | | squad_actions: [
| | | | | | | | apply_modifiers_action: {

| | | | | | | | | modifiers: [
| | | | | | | | | | received_accuracy_modifier: {
| | | | | | | | | | | $REF: "modifiers\received_accuracy_modifier.lua";
| | | | | | | | | | | usage_type: "multiplication";
| | | | | | | | | | | value: 0.77f;

what was that you were saying about dieing faster than 4 men?

@wooof
Wasn't that reduced?
I couldn't get to the correct data myself, but the new description suggests clearly they don't get any def bonuses.

@Cannonade
Because having 4 men squad that is able to inflict losses>having 6 men squad that mostly only takes them.

@Cannonade
Because having 4 men squad that is able to inflict losses>having 6 men squad that mostly only takes them.

Lolwat?

Explain to me how a 4man unit magically has the same durability as a 6man vs vehicles that are "wiping everything equally"?

Stop your backpedalling man. Its just embarrassing and taking us nowhere.

To be honest I really do not understand why some of you want to turn the Penal Battalions into a LONG RANGE UNIT, when they are designed from scratch to be a MID-RANGE UNIT.

SVT-40s are excellent at mid-range and are still strong close range, the flame-thrower upgrade makes Penals even more deadly at close range, on top of that SVT-40s are great when on the move and closing in on the enemy.

If you make them long range what's the point of upgrading to a flame-thrower? The same issue plays out with Combat engineers, as the flame-thrower synergises much better with pioneers and their MP-40s, making them a viable combat unit, it's not the case for combat engineers.

On the other hand, Conscripts use bolt-action rifles which are more accurate while static and at longer ranges, they are penalized when moving in, oorah is meant to be used to get closer to cover and shoot from there. Therefore the DP-28 synergises well with conscripts, and not at all with Penals.

Also, IRCC, you need TWO DP-28s to have the same damage output of a single LMG42, I think that's why Guards get two for 100 munitions. Therefore a single DP-28 for 60 munitions unlocked when either T3 or T4 is built seems fair, conscripts will still deal slightly less damage than LMG42 Grenadiers, considering also that they are much less accurate than Grendadier or Guards(I'm not a file digger I don't know all the modifiers).

I vote YES for giving conscripts a DP-28 as the Red Army needs decent non-doctrinal infantry to evolve from cheese support weapons spam tactics. Especially against amazing OKW infantry.

It goes without saying that if a conscript upgrades to the single DP-28 he should not be able to equip PPSH-41s.

1- From scratch, they were designed as a long range elite infantry, with "suicidal" nuke and flamer. Fuck logic. Nowadays they are just "Riflemen" more focused on mid close range.

2- The SVT is not mana coming down from heaven. They suffer from the same problem as every other unit in the game without "specialized" weapons. DPS drops really fast.

3- You can make SVT effective at mid-long range, you can reduce numbers of SVT to 3 and make them more effective and give them mosins in replace, you can make flamer replace SVT with AVT to switch their role into assault units, you can...

4- I don´t know with game are you playing but Cons SUCKS BALLS at long range. Their DPS is enough to compete early game against Volks and Grens. During mid to long game they don´t cut unless with PPSH at sword, sorry, spear range.
Even though, i don´t think theres any need to give them another upgrade at the moment. If cons get DP28 there would be no reason to get Penals.

5- You get 2 DPs for 75muni.

6- I don´t want to keep giving food to the meta "upgrade all infantry units with weapons and A-MOVE"

Lolwat?

Explain to me how a 4man unit magically has the same durability as a 6man vs vehicles that are "wiping everything equally"?

Stop your backpedalling man. Its just embarrassing and taking us nowhere.

I'm not talking about vehicles, you have your own armor and AT guns to engage those.
Would you pay attention to my previous posts, you'd noticed I've mentioned that vehicle lethality is high enough that all inf squads need to bail or will suffer losses equally fast.

You'd knew that if you'd ever fought against Tiger or Ostwind.
I'm talking late game infantry lethality, where vetted upgraded squads dish it out against each other.

Read posts carefully and now, go 'backpedal' to reread them correctly.

Trusting the descriptions about what happens is like saying a T34 and a Panther are both medium tanks, they should be equal.


Late game scaling:
Grenadiers:
++ AI damage (LMG42)
+ Rifle Grenade
+ Faust
- High cost/entity
- Squad size
=> Faust gets less effective late game due to the high lethality vs small squad sizes. Against infantry the LMG42 is a major bonus

Riflemen:
++ AI damage (M1919A6, BAR)
+ AT damage (Bazooka)
+ Grenade / Smoke
~ AT Rifle Grenade
~ Squad size
- High squad cost
- High cost / entity
=> This unit has probably the best anti infantry scaling lategame due to dual upgrades and with 5 men is definitely a better chance to get AT nades off. Yet it's also hard to field many of those squads, as they will heavily bleed you if they do not have infantry to fight.

Volksgrenadiers:
++ AT damage (Panzerschreck)
+ Grenade
+ Low cost/entity
~ Squad size
- low AI damage, especially with Schreck
Good lategame scaling by becoming an allround unit, but does not really pack a heavy punch against infantry. It wins most of it's fights simply due to the fact it's so durable, not because it deals much damage, so it is really hard to cause bleed with this unit.

Conscripts:
+ Squad size
+ Molotov
+ AT Grenade
+ Low cost / entity
- low AI damage
This squad does not really deal much damage lategame, neither against tanks nor infantry, but needs to completely rely on it's abilities. Oorah grants good mobility and it's the best AT-snare of all factions due to the survivability. In general, this unit turns more into a support / scout / harasser, than a fighting unit.


Not all of those units need to be the same. Grenadiers are great in their anti infantry role late game, but without that upgrade they are almost useless late game due to the high chance to get wiped when trying to faust. I really like the differentiation, not everything needs to be a perfect fighting unit lategame. Combined with the supportive units (Snipers, Guards, Maxim) they provide nice protection against vehicles and will give vision and protect those higher grade units.

As I said, they actually do "scale" thanks to be being 6man.

They soak and survive better than 4man units in mid-late game.

i think people are forgetting about weapon profiles. svts are close range weapons now. penals are no longer meant to be long range squads. this does have the side effect of making cons and penals overlap a bit more.

if you want long range dps, use guards. i dont know how many times ive had to say this. and ive already heard what your responses will be.

"theyre doctrinal"

"but they carry ptrs, so theyre AT"

grens are meant to scale. cons are not. the majority of soviet doctrines have elite infantry for a reason.

Thing is, all other factions don't need a particular doctrine to get quality scaling infantry. They get their rifles and volks/Obers and grens/PGrens no matter what. It could be a case of asymmetric balance for sure, except it also pretty much pigeon holds most Soviet players into taking a doctrine with Shock Troops, since Guards are a bit lackluster against infantry and PPShs are only situationaly useful.

And other factions, save for Ostheer, can also get doctrinal elite infantry on top of their non-doctrinal goodness, so that's not unique to the Soviets anymore either. Airborne, Falls, Panzerfusiliers and Jaegers all fit. Assault engineers if you really stretch it too.

Conscripts aren't meant to scale, but IMO they should. Being pretty much forced to get Shocks in order to have my infantry go toe to toe with my enemy's gets old. Against Ostheer it's not that bad, but against the OKW elite infantry swarm conscripts simply cannot cut it, and Penals are barely better. There's a reason Maxims are much favored.

As an extreme con spammer myself, I would say giving them the option to upgrade with a DP would be game breaking. Even without call-ins just getting a huge blob of dp-28 cons would wreck every mg the Germans have at their disposal. It would become ridiculous to just watch stuff get constantly sniped.

i think people are forgetting about weapon profiles. svts are close range weapons now. penals are no longer meant to be long range squads. this does have the side effect of making cons and penals overlap a bit more.

And its exactly the problem.
Do you need close range squad? Conscripts with ppsh!
Do you need close range squad? Penals!
Do you need close range squad? Shocks!

Do you need long range squad? AT squad.

if you want long range dps, use guards. i dont know how many times ive had to say this. and ive already heard what your responses will be.

I believe thats exactly the problem.
Guards aren't bad, but picking the doctrine only to have what all other armies have by default doesn't seem right.

Its not even about asymetrical balance here, but again, about unit overflap.
Also, using guards is troublesome for a single reason-they LOVE to donate their weapons to opponents-always.
Arguably we have irregulars, but their DPS or survivability isn't that great at all or at least it seems so. And by the way, your dps spreadsheet do not include irregulars with DPs and LMGs at all nor I can find their stats on other sites so I'm blind about this unit.

People hate to relay on these immobile weapon piniatas[guards] to get the ranged damage that isn't a sniper team, thats why we want Penals moved to the medium/long range role, hell I'd like them to have better long range damage even at the cost of 50% close range damage. Why?
Because I do NOT need yet another close range squad and I do NOT want to rely for ranged infantry damage on AT squad.