Allied Medium Tanks Overperforming/too spammable?

The frontal Armour of the IS2 is almost twice the pen value of the Panther's main gun. From the front, you'll penetrate roughly once in every two shots. What that means is, you'll statistically be able to pen from the front every 18 seconds (Assuming the round actually hits). Whereas you need something like 6 shots from a Panther to kill an IS2(18 * 6 = 108 or just under 2 minutes, completely ignoring the (actually quite large) chance of a miss), the IS2 only needs 3 shots on the Panther from the front, whereas it has a 75%-ish chance of penetrating.

Hmmm...

Panther:
Dmg: 160
Armor: 290/110
Hp: 800
Pen: 260/220

IS2:
Dmg: 160
Armor: 375/205
Hp: 1040
Pen: 250/190

First of all, IS2 needs 5 penetrating shots and Panther 6,5 (6*160dmg and something dealing 80dmg like a deflected faust)

Second: at max range it´s 58.6% vs 0% Well at 40 range it´s barely better vs 65%

Third: did we forgot the crappy speed and turret rotation of the IS2?

For barely similar cost i prefer 2 T85s, even without mark vehicle, rather than an IS2 to face a Panther. I wouldn´t want to dispatch an IS2 against a KT. Circlestrafing/blocking with 2 T85s is better.

I dont dispute your stats at all, but I think Albus included the fire rate as the actual core of his argument, whihc is not considered in the stats you posted (though I assume those as correct).

And yes, I agree completely on the T85s, even without Mark Vehicle (though really its so good you have to be a bit masochistic not to take it).

The is-2 is fine. Simply put the german AT is capable of defeating the armor of the is-2 and the t-34-85. so it simply boils down to hp and firepower on the other side and simply put the 2 t-34's have far more firepower and HP then the is2 and sufficient penetration to counter heavy armor. its bollocks that they are so cheap. either they need a penetration nerf to 120 or they need a fuel increase.

Oh guys, I have to backpedal in a heavy way. Just did some 2vs2 and games went well up to the point the enemy called their T3485 and Easy Eights in. They totaly stomped us and they were superior to a P4. So sorry

Nerf the USF tanks?
Good idea! The tank game already makes me no fun now, with the Allies.
We weaken them further from! To have even less appetite for the Allies, as it is already the case.

Give the USF some cool, heavy tanks and then nerf the medium tanks...
Problem as to the most threads, there are too many axis players!

its quite interesting really how relic designs tanks.

First they model smoke canisters on the t-34. Then give them to the PIV.

Then they give the tank with 300hp an ability that makes it faster than a 500hp tank.

Plus the KwK 40 L/43 having the same penetration as the F-34 Tank Gun, while the M1 Tank Gun is vastly superior to the KwK 40 L/48 (which is exactly the same as the L/43 for some reason).

Also the M36's M3 90mm gun doing 240 damage while the IS-2's behemoth D25-T 122mm does only 160, the same as an F-34 76mm.

The only good thing about USF armour is they have great speed, survivability, and no pop limit. Other than that, all other aspects suck. Anti infantry is okay but the Shermans are really vulnerable to armour if you use HE.

I dont dispute your stats at all, but I think Albus included the fire rate as the actual core of his argument, whihc is not considered in the stats you posted (though I assume those as correct).

And yes, I agree completely on the T85s, even without Mark Vehicle (though really its so good you have to be a bit masochistic not to take it).

6.25 Panther
6.4 IS2

Not even close.

Plus the KwK 40 L/43 having the same penetration as the F-34 Tank Gun, while the M1 Tank Gun is vastly superior to the KwK 40 L/48 (which is exactly the same as the L/43 for some reason).

Also the M36's M3 90mm gun doing 240 damage while the IS-2's behemoth D25-T 122mm does only 160, the same as an F-34 76mm.

Balance > Realism.

Eventhough i prefered the first version of the IS2 with higher damage and slower reload time. Thing is, the dmg was too unreliable.
Right now is in a fine place (not too good not too bad).

Do you want to give it higher damage? What about Pen? Rate of fire? AoE? Damage on deflect?

Considering what the T-34/85 and the M4A3E8 Sherman have to deal with I think they're fine. Though the EZ8 should be adjusted.

M4A3E8 Sherman:
Manpower Cost from 380 to 400
Fuel Cost from 135 to 140
CP required 9 to 10
Also changed to double call-in effectively increasing their cost to 800 manpower, 280 fuel and 28 population cap.



The Panthers main problem is it's reliability to hit with it's accuracy/scatter. I've used the OKW Panther it seems to be doing fine though both need a little help in accuracy. The durability on the Panthers also seem fine I think it's their accuracy that's hindering their durability. A few adjustments should be made to make them better tank killers. Also the Wehrmacht Panther being inferior to the OKW Panther makes no sense at all so buffing it to the OKW Panther stats would help a lot more.

For both Panthers:
Fuel Cost reduce from 175 to 170
Scatter angle reduce from 7.5 to 5.0
Scatter distance reduce from 8.0 to 5.5

Wehrmacht Panther:
Accuracy on the move from .5 to .65 to match the OKW Panther
Accuracy Near from .5 to .55 to match the OKW Panther
Accuracy Far from .25 to .35 to match the OKW Panther



On to the Panzer IV. Considering the Wehrmacht Panzer IV and M4A3 Sherman are about equal with the Panzer IV having a slight edge in armor and long range penetration I don't think that justifies it's fuel cost being 15 more than a M4A3 Sherman. The Panzer IV for the OKW cost a little too much fuel for a double call-in tank that's pretty much the same as other mediums. Though this could be in a different topic I think the commander upgrade from the Elite Armored Doctrine from the OKW should give the tanks increased sight range along with the ability to call in artillery.

Wehrmacht Panzer IV:
Fuel Cost reduce from 125 to 115

OKW Panzer IV:
Fuel Cost reduce from 210 to 190


And the Raketenwerfer needs a little buff.

Received accuracy from .87 to .75



This is my opinion on what should be adjusted.

I played some germany games and totally agree, allies are way overperforming! The panther needs a nerf, I remember it was stronger some day. You get outclassed by Easy Eights its not even funny anymore.

The e8 and the t-34/85 could use a slight cost increase to 145 fuel and the panther could use a slight cost decrease to 150 but the largest problem is that call in tanks do not require tech at all.

Then what if they decrease tech-upgrade fuel cost? For example, Soviet T3/T4 fuel cost from 120 to 90, Ost T2 fuel cost from 45 to 35, T3 fuel cost from 55 to 45, and T4 fuel cost from 60 to 50. Back to levels months ago. In fact, there was no necessary to increase the fuel cost for both Soviet and Ostheer. This has been proved by the fact that OKW Panther comes out earlier than Ostheer Panther. If the T3/T4 tanks come out earlier, call-ins will not be so effective. And units price also need some reduction too. Especially for Ost panther, it really need some love.

Cost to get Panther as OKW:
200/40+200/80+490/175=890/295
Cost to get Panther as Wehrmacht:
200/45+200/55+200/60+80/10+120/15+160/30+490/175 = 1450/390

This shows how stupid the ostheer teching upgrade is...Spending manpower to get upgrading and then spend more manpower to build building. While USF can spend 200 manpower and 80 fuel to get both tech-upgrading and 1 infantry unit for free...Ostheer teching really need some change now.

6.25 Panther
6.4 IS2

Not even close.

both panther have a 1 second wind down on top of its reload. So it's more like 7.25 for the panther.

I don't know if anyone said that already, but i don't think that allied tanks overperforming is the problem. They don't overperform. Is the german armor which is so bad at cost effectiveness that give you this feeling.
The only german tank that justifies its cost is PIV (wehrmacht). Ok, maybe we can add Tiger to it. Maybe. Before the nerfs it could be added with more ease.
Some people here talked about KT and Jagdtiger. What can you do with one Jagdtiger or KT against 5 T34s? I remember one time in 1v1 while playing as soviet, I swarmed an Elefant suported by a pack 40 and a squad of schrcks with 4 T34/76s. They had no chance.
Panther simply doesn't fit in as a wehrmacht unit nor as an OKW unit. What is it? A medium? Then is to expensive for a medium. A heavy? Then is to fragile for a heavy.
I never build panthers as wehrmacht. I build Panthers as OKW sometimes because I don't have other choice, I pick it sometimes because it's the less bad choice.
The solution would be to do something about the Panther, to make it worth, I'll let you chose what they should do.

So the more I play lately, the more it seems allied tanks - more so call ins are just so spammable and overperform for the cost, compared to similar Axis counter parts. This when using them and when going against them.

What are other thoughts on this? I still think there should be a tech level tied to call in's for all troops/tanks, etc. Other than Off maps.

I find most of these problems stem from the fact that the Panther - the "Premier medium tank" for both German factions just does not perform as good as it should, It performs about as good as a T34/85 but only vs tanks, its Anti Infantry is minimum at best. - Yes I realize the Panther is ment to be used as either a mobile flanking "Hunting" tank or long range slugger, but due to its terrible long range and on the move accuracy - paired with it's really low rate of fire means it just does not perform for it's cost.

Also means other tank counter's such as Jagdpanzer, Tiger and King Tiger just get swarmed by the time they can hit the field, even with Anti tank support, if it gets taken out and they trade a few tanks it does not matter allies usually have almost enough to drop another call in instantly.

The Puma seems the most solid vehicle Anti-tank that Okw have. Due to it's small profile it has good chance for shots to miss it, and has fairly good accuracy, rate of fire and damage, tied with it's Vet ability it can 1 Vs 1 almost any tank in the game, given the space and time if the tank is unsupported but that rarely happens.

So thoughts? Allied tanks too cheap/overperforming, Axis tanks too costly/underperforming or Should there be a Tech level/cost tied to call in Abilities?

Do not turn this thread in to a fanboy shitfest. Let's actually discuss this and bring up ideas/what could be done to make the mid-late game more fun other than just "Lol tank spam"

Also this is not a "Unit is overpowered thread" I think most of the tank's are pretty much where they need to be in terms of a unit and when they hit the field, I just feel some may be overperforming for their cost and are too cheap to field and/or too easily spammable.

I think their tank performance if fine. Except ISU152 and T-34 85. These need to be adressed.

I do however think their cost is too cheap for their performance. Far too cheap.

The problem is with the tech system, especially with the Soviets, who have literally no reason to do anything but use commanders with infantry and tank call-ins. Fix the non-doctrinal units and tech system and this issue will evaporate.

The problem is with the tech system, especially with the Soviets, who have literally no reason to do anything but use commanders with infantry and tank call-ins. Fix the non-doctrinal units and tech system and this issue will evaporate.

Possibly that's the nature of the (soviet) beast. There's a line of thought out there that says that Soviets must rely on their doctrines to succeed. That makes up for their rubbish non-doctrinal units. However, as late game progresses the scale changes and Soviet doctrinal units, once again being relied upon by their Soviet player for effective units, become very powerful. In my humble opinion, considering how every other faction has so much better non-doctrinal infantry and light vehicles, Soviets probably deserve to have something powerful.

It strikes me that there's an expectation when playing Germans for their armour to be uber alles bar nothing. But this is 1944 and the Allies have some pretty potent hardware at this point too.

Not sure about US though... haven't gotten in enough playtime for them.

The problem is with the tech system, especially with the Soviets, who have literally no reason to do anything but use commanders with infantry and tank call-ins. Fix the non-doctrinal units and tech system and this issue will evaporate.

Well that goes the same with OH

Was there any tank between a P4 and a Panther?

Was there any tank between a P4 and a Panther?

No panther is p5 official designation.