Easy Eight

Seeing as everyone on this forum pretty much insists on bitching until every single useful American unit or commander is nerfed into the ground, I'm just going to suggest removing the commander and replacing him with something the German players that populate this forum wont constantly whine about.

Around 70%~80% of the community play Axis mainly.

What do you expect? They cry louder.

The whole problem of the overpowered Easy Eight could be fixed with a cost-effective Panther.

Until then I don´t see much hope. Panzer IV, StuG etc. don´t stand their ground versus the Easy eight and even Paks can just scare it away. When multiple Easy Eights arrive (which they always do), the Paks will get swarmed.

Around 70%~80% of the community play Axis mainly.

What do you expect? They cry louder.

I'd rather say 70-80% of the CoH2.org crowd play all factions and that there's a minority of "one-faction-only" players immune to sound balance discussions.

Have you looked at auto matching? It's like 80% Axis most of the time. It was the same way in vCoH. Most of the players were Axis.

I think people just find Axis better designed and more fun and I agree. US is kind of bleh IMO. They're like the old Brits mixed in with US faction...

Anyway, the E8 can't even beat a Panther let alone a Tiger, King Tiger or Jagd Tiger so I don't really see the problem. US finally gets a Sherman that can beat a Panzer IV and people are pissed off about it.

Yeah it's true you can skip T4 with Rifle Company and get E8's but once you tech Panthers or higher it's easily beatable. Skipping T4 means they won't have TD's or M8 tanks you have to deal with. Just Stuka the spam of E8's if you're having that much trouble.

The only problem I see that people are probably having is that it comes a bit too early. Maybe pushing the CP cost to 12 so it forces US players to tech T4 or risk skipping it and waiting too long and getting crushed because they don't have any tanks and floating too much fuel.

Have you looked at auto matching? It's like 80% Axis most of the time. It was the same way in vCoH. Most of the players were Axis.

The percentage only shows the amount of players within your ELO-range and not the overall amount of players searching.

If you tech to panther with the current costs then you have no chance unless you're a genius with paks and tellers. Maybe close air support or pak 43 can help.

It's the same call ins vs teching story.

I'd rather say 70-80% of the CoH2.org crowd play all factions and that there's a minority of "one-faction-only" players immune to sound balance discussions.

Are you going to negate that most of the playerbase play mainly axis factions?
Automatch says otherwise. And it seems that it is constant in all ELO ranges, because everybody sees always around 70% axis players.

And a simple search in this forum shows that changes detrimental to axis factions generate much more outcry than changes detrimental to allies. Same applies to official and steam forums.

And about "immune to sound balance discussions", please don't make me remember when so many sacred cows from this very forum claimed that Tiger Ace was perfectly balanced.

Maybe we should just delete Rifle Company. Seeing as the only useful thing in it is the Easy-Eight since the Vet Riflemen for some nonsensical reason have a 80 second cooldown at the start of the game, which defeats the main point of their existence.

Seeing as everyone on this forum pretty much insists on bitching until every single useful American unit or commander is nerfed into the ground, I'm just going to suggest removing the commander and replacing him with something the German players that populate this forum wont constantly whine about.

I bet once when E8 is nerfed you'll start complaining about vanilla riflemen, too, huh? Or maybe how the AT Rifle Nade consistently causes engine damage? Actually, no, I bet it'll be Paratroopers - like anybody uses those useless fucks lol.

The E8 is fucking fine. It's the only American tank that can manfight another tank - when properly micor'd - is doctrinal, is very late game, and is not a cheap tank. It doesn't reliably penetrate the front armour of any heavy tanks(I don't know what shit you guys are fucking smoking, pass it over) and its performance against infantry is mediocre and only becomes decent with the .50cal upgrade, and is passed out by the vanilla Sherman using HE shells. The PzIV fills the same role as the E8 but costs less (350/125) so naturally it will get beaten, but can still win if mirco'd well enough.

The E8 is not penetrating too much. The E8 is not too cheap. The E8 is not doing too much damage. Try playing USF if everything about them is so fucking strong and get out of your comfort zone.

Main issue with it is its cost and time of arrival.More than performance.Its silly u don't understand that.At 9 cp and 135 fuel its overperforming FOR COST,not as a whole unit as such,because there are better tanks.
OKW is helpless vs spam of this unit and by the time it comes stugs and pz 4s can't do much vs these.

I'd rather if it had more health and less armor.

Anyway I don't think it overperforms when it comes to durability.

Penetration could be lowered a bit thou.

Are you going to negate that most of the playerbase play mainly axis factions?
Automatch says otherwise. And it seems that it is constant in all ELO ranges, because everybody sees always around 70% axis players.

And a simple search in this forum shows that changes detrimental to axis factions generate much more outcry than changes detrimental to allies. Same applies to official and steam forums.

And about "immune to sound balance discussions", please don't make me remember when so many sacred cows from this very forum claimed that Tiger Ace was perfectly balanced.

No I don't negate, I simply don't know. The people I play with and against usually play all factions and whenever I hit the search game button the ratio fluctuates roughly around 50:50.

Considering the Tiger Ace, I don't recall any of the serious top players on this board defending it in it's original state.

On topic:
The E8 is a marvelous generalist tank, I don't know if it's op but a slight fuel cost increase should be bearable (say 5-10 fuel).

Have you looked at auto matching? It's like 80% Axis most of the time. It was the same way in vCoH. Most of the players were Axis.

I think people just find Axis better designed and more fun and I agree. US is kind of bleh IMO. They're like the old Brits mixed in with US faction...

Anyway, the E8 can't even beat a Panther let alone a Tiger, King Tiger or Jagd Tiger so I don't really see the problem. US finally gets a Sherman that can beat a Panzer IV and people are pissed off about it.

Yeah it's true you can skip T4 with Rifle Company and get E8's but once you tech Panthers or higher it's easily beatable. Skipping T4 means they won't have TD's or M8 tanks you have to deal with. Just Stuka the spam of E8's if you're having that much trouble.

The only problem I see that people are probably having is that it comes a bit too early. Maybe pushing the CP cost to 12 so it forces US players to tech T4 or risk skipping it and waiting too long and getting crushed because they don't have any tanks and floating too much fuel.

while this is arguably true , dont forget shermans will usually come earlier than a panther . or a tiger or anything else and will be massed . you get a panther at about 15-17 minutes as okw for example if you dont build anything else that costs fuel and you manage to hold your fuel. US can certianly get 2 easy eights out pre 20 minutes

I also got mostly 50 / 50 searches in the recent days. Besides that, CoH2 has players that prefer one faction, players that play all factions or players that only want to win and play the flavor of the month. That means if you actually want to link searching% to balance you'd have to observe it over a long time to try to remove the first two groups out of the calculation.

Besides that, it's as GustavGans said depending on ELO. If it say 30/70 for you, it's maybe 50/50 for someone else. Additionally those values only count players currently searching for a game.
Really simple math with a few assumptions:
Constant amount of players, all games take on average 30 minutes, search time is on average 3 minutes.
1000 players, starting to play at different times. 3/33 are searching and 30/33 are currently playing, which means 3/33*1000 = 91 players searching and 909 are playing.
Let's assume the people searching are 70% Axis as you said. That results in a total split of:

909/2 + 91 * 0.7 = 518 Axis players
909/2 + 91 * 0.3 = 482 Allied players

Can you now see why this amount of people searching has little to no actual relation to people playing a faction, as it ignores all people ingame as well as only being based on your ELO and the gamemode you queued for?

So could we please stop with that stupid discussion. Relic has far more detailed and actually useful data which we sometimes get access too (but which I can't reveal due to NDA) and if such a problem would exist they would notice it.




On topic:
I think the Easy Eight is almost fine for strength. I would reduce the AoE on it's gun a bit (I feel it's a bit too strong vs infantry) to make it a combination of Jackson and Sherman. It's MGs are already really hurting infantry, but with a main gun that's also really accurate it simply performs too well vs inf. Besides that it's far too cost-effective, as it is stronger than a T34/85 in my opinion, but quite a bit cheaper. Having a superior gun to the '85, better MGs and similar defensive stats and mobility I'd say it's superior. There are some times where the hitpoints of a '85 are better, like vs PaK43 which hardcounter E8, but those are just some rare cases, in general it's still worse. I would put this tank at 400MP/145 fuel.

The E8 is good but not that good. It is a little underpriced.

Probably 150 fuel is a fair price.

I think it's mostly the whole doctrine and espec. how rifle company demolishes Ostheer.

The rifles put a lot of pressure, then the affordable death cloud punishes bunched up weapons teams (MGs, mortars, paks) very effectively. Then the E8 comes out and demolishes Ostheer T3 when Ostheer T4 is currently pretty expensive. The Tiger comes too late.

Main issue with it is its cost and time of arrival.More than performance.Its silly u don't understand that.At 9 cp and 135 fuel its overperforming FOR COST,not as a whole unit as such,because there are better tanks.
OKW is helpless vs spam of this unit and by the time it comes stugs and pz 4s can't do much vs these.

You do realize at 9cp with OKW Elite Armored Doctrine you get 2 P IV's for 360 mp and 105 fuel each...

Compared to E 8's 380 mp and 135 fuel, with a little bit of extensive calculus, you can conclude that OKW has access to cheaper tanks at the same time USF gets the E 8.

Your argument is invalid.

Go home

You do realize at 9cp with OKW Elite Armored Doctrine you get 2 P IV's for 360 mp and 105 fuel each...

Compared to E 8's 380 mp and 135 fuel, with a little bit of extensive calculus, you can conclude that OKW has access to cheaper tanks at the same time USF gets the E 8.

Your argument is invalid.

Go home

Well even two p4 are risk to take on E8, and if the price per one P4 is 105 fuel then u need to save 210 fuel for calling them, and u know about fuel penalty for OKW? 720 mp and 210 fuel for two p4, big no (for OKW).

No the easy eight didnt beat my king tiger. I won but witnessing it penetrate my king from the front concerned me.

Yes, because King Tigers aren't allowed to take damage from inferior tanks. They should be at 100% health after every battle.

The OKW P4 call-in costs 180 fuel in the current game version.

Some of you are complaing about skipping T4... How about Assault Grens doctrine? Ost can skip everything with it.
Assault Grens? Check.
Panzer Grenadiers? Check.
early-mid game vehicle, Stug? Check.
Arty? Check.
Tiger? Check.
No need to build anything.


About E8... Command King Tiger is coming and you want to nerf the best USF vehicle (which still is shit when compare to best of soviets, okw and ost).
What's more, it's only in 1 doctrine so in fact you know from the first minute what you enemy is planning and you have a lot of time to get prepared for E8.

You do realize at 9cp with OKW Elite Armored Doctrine you get 2 P IV's for 360 mp and 105 fuel each...

Compared to E 8's 380 mp and 135 fuel, with a little bit of extensive calculus, you can conclude that OKW has access to cheaper tanks at the same time USF gets the E 8.

Your argument is invalid.

Go home

You do realize that 105(actually 90 fuel) fuel for OKW is actually 135 fuel?Your argument is invalid.Do u think the performance of one of those ausf j pz 4s is equal to easy eight for same fuel cost?

Simple question how does OKW stand a chance vs spam of this unit?Answer it can't.

You do realize that 105(actually 90 fuel) fuel for OKW is actually 135 fuel?Your argument is invalid.Do u think the performance of one of those ausf j pz 4s is equal to easy eight for same fuel cost?

Simple question how does OKW stand a chance vs spam of this unit?Answer it can't.

Do you realize that being able to scavenge armor and team weapons as well as conversion truck make your argument completely void?

Its 90 fuel per tank no matter how you want to spin it.

And do you want to know what is effective against EZ8?

Shrecks and puppchens, because they don't have HE muni and their AI is worse then 34/85, which means infantry is more then a match against it.

You don't fight rock with scissors, you use paper.
Being fixated to the level of obsession on using scissors against rock and failing doesn't mean the rock is op, it means you are in denial of using paper which is the case of 90% balance discussions here.

You don't use weaker tanks against stronger tanks and expect them to win.
Well, maybe you do.