Oberkommando West: Elite Armored Doctrine (Feedback)

Dear Community,

Greetings! I just wanted to initiate a poll & discussion in regards to one of the premium commanders for the Oberkommando West faction. As of yesterday (depending on what time zone you reside in), the 'Free Commander Rotation' feature has allowed for the next several days the temporary use of two rare 'Western Front Armies' commanders, which can only be obtained via the 'War Spoils' reward system (as of this moment in time). Among these said two commanders, is the 'Elite Armored Doctrine' for the Oberkommando West. After playing a few games with this commander, I have noticed a plethora of issues with it and would like to address what I belief could be improved, tweaked, and where I personally think this commander stands, in terms of practicality.

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2 CP - Signal Relay: "Boosting signal range briefly reveals enemy vehicles on the mini map".

My Impressions: This is without a doubt an awesome ability that could definitely give you the edge you need and the element of surprise to overwhelm your opponent. The whole concept of this ability at the price of 2 Command Points definitely makes this one of my favorite abilities that is enabled through the selection of a commander. And at the price of 15 munitions, heck, I'll go even as far as saying that this is arguably the best feature offered for this commander, at this moment in time. I would leave this perk, as is.

4 CP - Emergency Repairs: "Vehicle crews gain the ability to repair critical damage on their vehicles. The crew is very vulnerable during this repair procedure".

My Impressions: In contrast (and this whole segment is based around my thorough comparison of the other factions' commanders having similar abilities that I deem more conventional) to both the Allies (both the 'US Forces' & the 'Soviets') standard & doctrinal based abilities, that are of similar nature, this feature is extremely under-powered and unnecessary. Between the US Forces being able to exit and repair the bulk of their vehicles, WITHOUT a doctrinal-based ability, and the Soviets being able to heal their tanks with both the 'Repair Station' and 'Vehicle Crew Repair Training' doctrinal feature, I would say that this ability is not worth a single munition. For the resource cost of this feature, I would modify this to execute an either quick or immediate repair to any critical damage that was previously inflicted on the vehicle. At this moment in time, however, I would steer clear from utilizing this perk.

7 CP - High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT) Shells: "Tanks are now issued HEAT ammunition for increased penetration".

My Impressions: First off, let me tell you how excited I was when I first heard about this ability, and how highly disappointed I was when I discovered on usage that this feature is ANYTHING (that is negative) besides what (positive things) I expected. For a faction that is heavily deprived and scarce on resources (where every single bit of manpower, fuel, and munition is crucial towards either a glorious victory or a crushing defeat), forty-five munitions is to initiate an ability that only lasts 15 SECONDS, this is NOT a feature that justifies what it is worth. Like the former ability, I would go as far as saying that this is not worth a SINGLE munition. When going against American-based armored vehicles (which are already lightweight in terms of their defensive attributes), this feature, in my honest opinion, is by no means in "satisfactory" condition (yet). For what this ability was (from my perspective) intended to be, I would modify this to be executed as a passive upgrade, once the threshold of command points is reached, it would come into effect for the remainder of the match (if any balance-tweaks need to be added, such as a minor decrease in the raw potency of the said shells, I believe the community would be more than open to this). At this moment in time, however, for a faction such as the Oberkommando West, which is (currently) "starved" in resource quantities, I would still steer clear of utilizing this perk.

8 CP - Panzer Commander: "The Panzer IV, Panther & King Tiger can be upgraded with a Panzer Commander that can survey the battlefield and call in coordinated artillery strikes".

My Impressions: Another seemingly (at first glance) "invaluable" ability gone batty. This feature, as of this moment, requires WAY too much resources and the output that comes of it, is just not worth it, in my opinion. The upgrade on the vehicle's overall sight, is incredibly minor, and arguably doesn't qualify as a sufficient-enhancement in the eyes of the general player populace. Although, aesthetically appealing, unless you prefer sheer visuals over quality performance (which is what all German factions supposedly champion), this ability isn't for you (and even if you did, I'd honestly have to say this game isn't too fun, even if you have the "coolest" looking units in the world, the "stylish-appeal" really isn't going to help, especially when your enemy can easily obliterate them if they can't properly put up a challenge). I find this feature especially unsettling/disappointing, since the 'German Eastern Faction' (the Ostheer/Wehrmacht) have an arguably "more-bang-for-your-buck" ability with a similar sight-boosting component to it (i.e. - The 'Spotting Scope'). The additional artillery call-in component, for its price (approximately 120 munitions for the 5 small-caliber shells that are deployed), is in my opinion, honestly NOT worth the investment (again, going back to the scarcity of the resource supply for the Oberkommando West faction, EVERY SINGLE bit of resources, counts). For what the purpose of this ability was intended to be, I feel that the further increase of vehicle sight, would be more than justified. Because, let's remember: this is SUPPOSED to be a rare, premium Oberkommando West commander that specializes in armored vehicle superiority, and the overall quality boosts of these said units (they don't (or at least shouldn't) it "Elite Armored Doctrine" for nothing!). At this moment in time, however, I would again, steer clear of utilizing this perk and go with the vanilla/baseline 'Machine Gun' upgrade for your armored vehicles, when available.

9 CP - Veteran IV Ausf J. Battle Group: "Two Panzer IV Ausf J. can be deployed to the battlefield. These main battle tanks are effective against all targets. These units are deployed with a random amount of experience".

My Impressions: Last, but definitely NOT (in good way) least, is... THIS. Honestly, it didn't get more disappointing than this. Being that these two MEDIUM (keep this in mind, I'll be addressing this later) tanks are allowed to be called onto the battlefield when you reach 9 Command Points (which generally occurs late in the match), you (the player) will be encountering a plethora of anti-armor Allied units. Making a remark such as "These main battle tanks are effective against all targets" is a gross overstatement, that will ultimately cost you a glorious victory (and earn you a crushing defeat). I don't know if the developers expect us to purposely tech-up slower than usual so that when these tanks are (finally) deployed, they'll actually make some sort of noise and provide a "tide-turner" for the individual utilizing them, but I'd like to fill the game developers, the balance managers, and/or whomever else is in charge of the user-experience, this: it simply won't. That's it. For their price (720 manpower & 210 fuel), and the fact that they'll never spawn with a veterancy-level above 2 (yes, that is right), they REALLY are NOT worth the resources spent. For 80 more manpower (without any fuel), a Wehrmacht/Ostheer player can summon a maxed-veterancy (veterancy level three) 'Tiger Ace'. And honestly, due to my personal experience with this (the 'Tiger Ace') unit, I can say that this unit, provided that you are able to properly preserve and utilize it properly, will be able to make more of a difference in a battle, than the two medium tanks provided in this feature. Not to mention (*sarcasm*), that the two Panzer IV Ausf J. medium tanks are significantly weaker, than their Eastern Faction counterpart. Now, going along with the crucial concept that the Oberkommando West Faction (and better yet, the Wehrmacht/Ostheer Faction, as well) is deeply reliant on whatever resources that they can acquire, playing as the Oberkommando West means that you need to make a concerted effort to (attempt to) preserve your combat units. With units that are at of higher cost to deploy, and are of lesser quantity, the German Factions paramount reliance, is the pure quality of their units. This NEEDS to be taken into account when picking, choosing, and utilizing your units as the Germans, and from what I can see, gather, and understand: this ability is incredibly counterproductive when trying to successfully have a sense of "synergy" between your combat units. The three most important components in ANY competitively-oriented endeavor, whether it be a match of Company of Heroes 2 or even a real-life war, is knowledge, planning, and timing. For something that I perceived as something that any combat-enthusiast would find, "self-explanatory", the blatant lack of, and disregard of the formerly mentioned components, is astounding. It really seemed like to me that the folks at 'Relic Entertainment' have sacrificed the traditional "quality" of the Germans, that we all have known and loved forever, for a seemingly polar-opposite "quantity", that doesn't assist or promote any form of cohesiveness, whatsoever. Now, my proposal for an efficient solution is somewhat of an extreme: I highly recommend (due to how this feature is currently structured) that Relic completely scraps these units, for a single, more quality-focused unit (that (obviously) is armor-based), that is able to stand, toe-to-toe with late-game Allied units (I hate to say this, but due to a lack of a better example, something along the lines of a 'Tiger Ace' (current version, of course (NOT the original version)). At this moment in time, however, I would AGAIN (for the fourth and final time) steer completely clear of utilizing this perk (seriously, DON'T DO IT!!!).

The Final Verdict: For something that I (and probably many others), interpreted as an equivalent, armored-oriented version of the "Elite Troops Doctrine", this was definitely a major disappointment. I completely understand that all games that possess a complex system and mechanics have their fair-share of issues/complications, however, with all due respect, I find this ridiculous. For again, something that should be a prime cut, "best of the best" commander, this does not live up to the name of "Elite Armored Doctrine". As it stands right now, this commander is completely under-powered and does not stack up against other factions' rare, premium counterparts (e.g. - Elite Troops Doctrine, Rifle Company, and Soviet Industry Tactics, among a few). Until the necessary balance modifications are implemented (that is, if Relic determines that this is an issue of prominence, and not just something that people can just "deal with"), I would give my strongest recommendations to avoid utilizing this perk, that is, unless you would like to have an (almost) entirely vanilla early, middle, and late-game, which would spell out a critical disadvantage to your opponents.

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So, what do YOU folks think? I welcome anything & everything, provided it is constructive and/or respectful of others' views. Please let me know what you think of my suggestions, and if you have your own, feel more than free to address them here. I've also included a poll to showcase the general populace's overall opinion of this specific matter.

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Regards,

Thomas James Ciotola
"TomOfAction"
http://www.twitter.com/TJC

A link to another thorough walkthrough of the commander;

http://www.coh2.org/topic/20852/making-okw-elite-armored-work/post/186894

Generalist point:

Stop yelling about how OKW is starved. That was barely true before and it sure as hell ain't true now.

100% Manpower and 100% Munitions income. Yeah. No. Starved is not the word any more.

Signal Relay: Agreed, awesome ability.
Repairs: Agreed, totally useless. You can repair just by driving back to your mechanized HQ, so unless you're using a strategy that doesn't build one for some reason, it's pointless and overpriced.
HEAT Shells: Horrible ability. The slower shells are more likely to cost you an engagement than win it.
Panzer Commander: I've never tried it.
P4 Call-in: Huge disappointment. My fuel is better spent on a KT.

Elite armor is a total disappointment like many other meh commanders.

Officer-Panzerfulsilier-Jadgtiger combo is good enough for every situation....I'm glad that I don't need to pay for it.

2 CP - Signal Relay: "Boosting signal range briefly reveals enemy vehicles on the mini map".
And at the price of 15 munitions, heck, I'll go even as far as saying that this is arguably the best feature offered for this commander, at this moment in time. I would leave this perk, as is.

Its 50 munitions not 15 , and that makes the ability pretty awful.

Emergency Repairs Needs to be improved and the panzer commander needs to give more sight

First off, I like it but: some of it's abilities are bugged. HEAT Rounds especially, scatters lose so much velocity that it usually scatters right in front of the tank that fired it or way before it even reaches the intended target.

The Signal Relay is bugged and does not always reveal all enemy tanks, sometimes it'll show ones back near their base, but no ones that are say just around a LoS blocker or two, which is awful as you go off this information "Oh great not tanks there I can push in" And suddenly 2-3 enemy tanks are actually there.

The repair ability needs a serious buff, it's only "good" part is that it repairs crits for 50/60? Muni, it does a small repair as well but disables the tank entirely. USF get this kind of Crit fixing too, but for free, they just need to hop out the tank. In current state drop it to 20, or 30 Muni Max, or buff it.

Panzer Commander is nice on tanks such as King Tiger and Panther, but it does take away the MG which is really good vs Infantry and doesn't give as much sight range as I'd like.

It's nice to see the PZ4J's got their fuel cost lowered back to 180 again, they are Okay, but I still feel they are just, no where near as effective as Whermacht PZ4's I know they have slightly less stats, and slightly more? When upgraded with skirts, but for the time they hit the field I feel they come too late. Move to 7CP?

does signal relay show up vehicles that have been de-crewed either by combat or un-crewed for USF repairs?

It's nice to see the PZ4J's got their fuel cost lowered back to 180 again, they are Okay, but I still feel they are just, no where near as effective as Whermacht PZ4's I know they have slightly less stats, and slightly more? When upgraded with skirts, but for the time they hit the field I feel they come too late. Move to 7CP?

It's supposed to hit the field same time USF's Rifle Comp E'8's come out

The name of the doctrine (elite armored) is a ruse.

It should have been called: "Bugged or Useless Abilities & Lackluster Armor That Can't Beat a Sherman 1v1 Doctrine".

You're better off getting a panther than those two PIVs.

The name of the doctrine (elite armored) is a ruse.

you are right here, as I've said(and will keep saying) they are "armored support" for my native translation

Also, which shermans do you mean? Because it pounds stock ones easily with skirts(it got 206 or 208 armor, almost as much as EZ8) and penetration like regular P4.

Its fine as it is, especially now that it got cost reduction.
What kind of performance do you expect for 90fu per tank?

you are right here, as I've said(and will keep saying) they are "armored support" for my native translation

Also, which shermans do you mean? Because it pounds stock ones easily with skirts(it got 206 or 208 armor, almost as much as EZ8) and penetration like regular P4.

Its fine as it is, especially now that it got cost reduction.
What kind of performance do you expect for 90fu per tank?

I feel they should just change the model. Using a Panzer IV is just tricking people into believing that it should be as good as the original one. Maybe a Panzer III ? That would be nonsense historically-wise, but would probably reflect their ingame performance more. Nevermind, bad idea.

And to be honest, being 90 fuel means they would cost 135 fuel for any other faction, so it is even not justified to be somewhat weaker than other main battle tanks. I think they should be even better than other MBT, because they are called as a 2 of, and require extreme ressource floating. But i am probably biased.

I guess that a lot of people would agree that this doctrine require a faire share of rework.

you are right here, as I've said(and will keep saying) they are "armored support" for my native translation

Also, which shermans do you mean? Because it pounds stock ones easily with skirts(it got 206 or 208 armor, almost as much as EZ8) and penetration like regular P4.

Its fine as it is, especially now that it got cost reduction.
What kind of performance do you expect for 90fu per tank?

I mean EZ8s and M4Cs will beat them head on. Even stock Shermans can kite and kill them. Their turret traverse is their Achilles heel. In such case armor becomes irrelevant.

They're quite good in a supporting role but cannot be used themselves without support. That doesn't qualify them as "elite armor".

But yes, you are right, they perform well for their cost.

I rather make a panther or something heavier instead of going for 2 second-hand P4s imo for OKW. OKW should just go for the heavier tanks instead of spending most of their fuel on 2 medium tanks. The ostheer player can already produce 2 earlier P4s to support the mid game. 2 Panzer 4s shouldent come out at 9 cp as it is already considered late game. I suggest probably bringing the Panzer 4s to 7 cps and maybe get a slight cost reduction?

The PIV J's feel more like 'elite armor' if you:

- buy the skirts
- buy 1 tank commander

and then spend 50 muni first to maphack, and then use those 20 seconds to quickly maneuver around and strike the rear of enemy tanks, preferably with HEAT. Yea, lots of munitions.

The real problem is broken HEAT rounds and the fact that p4s do not scale well against American Tanks OR soviet tank destroyers. I say lower the fuel cost and make it so they come with zero vet.

firstly interesting poll.

some minor changes to the poll (fixed a gramatical/spelling error)

second queston: would to wouldn't 

The PIVs are terribad, full stop. Even if you actually get lucky and receive them with vetted crews, they come to late to have an impact as a generalist tank and they are outmatched against all Allied medium/heavies except the T34/76 and the vanilla Shermans, against which they do ok-ish. If you need serious AT, this is not it, and at that stage of the game where facing Jacksons, ISUs, IS-2s, or the advanced Allied mediums is almost guaranteed, you don't want to sink your fuel into such a lacklustre unit.

The PIVs are terribad, full stop. Even if you actually get lucky and receive them with vetted crews, they come to late to have an impact as a generalist tank and they are outmatched against all Allied medium/heavies except the T34/76 and the vanilla Shermans, against which they do ok-ish. If you need serious AT, this is not it, and at that stage of the game where facing Jacksons, ISUs, IS-2s, or the advanced Allied mediums is almost guaranteed, you don't want to sink your fuel into such a lacklustre unit.

Couldn't agree more. I've pulled elite armored from my loadout. The only thing i would even want from it at this point is heat shells and those sound like they are bugged. I'd take a command panther over the p4 battle group any time.