Action Items: Balance Feedback Required!

completely agree with the long range combat. some long range lethality is just ridiculous recently.

4 man soviet weapon teams? How will they ever stand up to the German firepower?
Things like mortar rate of fire, sniper rate of fire, small arms fire DPS are all much better on the axis side because soviet squads are bigger. So.. how are soviets going to compete? Mandatory guards/shock doctrines? That sounds fun..

i worry about this too. but american teams are 4 men and i assume they have no modifiers like received accuracy or armor. so i guess it could work? but if this is going to fly, make zis fire rate at least a little higher. also change maxim crew's have behavioral state like mg42 and not like an at gun, so that it doesn't go round and round when resetting up, do not drop the gun when they retreat, and plus making maxim squad members spread out.

Elite Rifleman:
At the moment this ability provides no real downfall to its usage except for its long recharge time. We implemented slight cost increase as well as starting it on a cool down. However we are currently exploring possible redesigns of the ability such as increasing the rate in which rifleman will accumulate Veterancy.

As Cruzz have said, pretty much all insta vet abilities break the game, but if you really insist on elite rifles, get them to how they were back in alpha, long time to build from T0 so they are mid/late game replacement ability.

Soviet Weapon Team:
This has been a hot topic for a while but we are experimenting with 4 men Soviet Weapon Teams. Issue being they are too durable. If a 4 men team loses 2 men, chances of losing that whole squad would go up exponentially. When a 6 men squad loses 2 men the chances of losing that squad still remain fairly low. If overall performances needs to be compensated for reduced durability that is something we could also explore.

I also beleive it is a bad idea.
We need to remember that axis armies have much greater firepower and clearing 6 man teams is no issue at all. Pair of LMG grens or Obersoldaten can take Maxim upfront easily. ZiS and Mortar would have to get HUGE buffs to compensate for smaller crewes, which would break the balance of firepower. Increased survivability is noticeable only against explosive weapons and the teams die to small arms just as fast as 4 man teams against soviets.

But going back to MGs, my suggestion is to BUFF them somehow(all of them) to the level of .50 cal and increase their price to 270-280, so they are more effective at given role, but less spamable.

Long Range Combat:
With our change to lethality in a previous update to make cover more important. A side effect of that change was that it made long range weapons extremely effective, especially LMGs. The combination of cover, lethality, and long range has resulted in medium to short range units being overall less effective. In most situation, units that require closer range will lose too many men on approach resulting in a significant drop in offensive performance.

LMGs overperform. There is no denying to it. My suggestion is to bring them down to the levels of DP-28 that offer steady DPS but lower one, still best at range where they would outgun other squads, but not to the point where you could get critical mass that would melt everything. Together with lower DPS at max range, they should loose even more close range DPS so there is reward for getting up close and they would need assault rifles/SMGs/semi autos to protect them. That would also encourage mixed infantry or infantry upgrades instead of stacking critical long range a-move mass.

Elite Riflemen: Insta vet is bad design and I don't like it. In my opinion either lowering vet requirement, providing additional levels of veterancy, or making it a later game option (by making it take twice as long to train the rifles for example) would solve it in a way. Or make it unlock weapon upgrades for free so that you get more versatile rifles out of the bat?

Soviet weapons teams: If Soviet teams get to 4 men, they need to also spread out more and be less vulnerable somehow. Axis weapons usually have higher DPS to compensate for Soviet squads having more men. If you nerf one without nerfing the others, Soviet weapons teams will start dropping like flies, and it's the one thing keeping them in the game against OKW considering their piss poor core infantry.

Long Range combat: Ugh, please. LMGs are just way too prominent and powerful right now. Obers and 1919 rifles/paras can just a-move across the map, or plop themselves in cover, and annihilate almost any infantry that is sent their way effortlessly. Shocks still manage to be relevant thanks to their armor and high DPS, but others like Penals, PGrens and Thompson paras struggle immensely in the current meta because they can easily get cut down before dealing damage. It also makes snipers less attractive when an Obers squad can just walk up to one and kill it in two MG34 bursts from max range. I much prefer elite infantry being close-combat flavored.

Elite riflemen: I think the current solution is good. You can't start calling them in until the third rifle. I really don't think they could be more expensive unless you made them more consistent with the vet they provide.

Soviet weapon teams: Durability is their defining feature. German squads kill 6 men at the same rate soviet kill 4 men. If they went down then they would be come horrendously underpowered and easy to wipe. The only unit that is complained about is the maxim's use in numbers and you could most likely find another solution that doesn't destroy these units main feature.

Long range units: Elite Long range units should be outlasting their opponents not performing a burst of damage against them as to allow the enemy player to react. For example: shock troops have to close in to give a large amount allowing the enemy plenty of time to retreat.

OBERS
Obers on the other hand almost always meet their enemy in their optimal range. Meening they can instantly start dealing great damage against squads and if units attempt to approach and fail they will have to retreat through their optimal range, most likely causing a wipe. Instead Obers need high durability to outlast their opponents, while still giving them time to react and bring up counter, or at very least retreat if the fight turns bad.

M1919
The American LMG is a different problem then the obers. This is a accumalative affect where 1 is not actually all that powerful, but the rifles ability to have two puts it over the top. I would actually suggest buffing individual M1919s and making them 80 munitions, but in turn have the weapon take up BOTH weapon slots.

Great post Brad thanks for this!

Elite Rifleman:
However we are currently exploring possible redesigns of the ability such as increasing the rate in which rifleman will accumulate Veterancy.

Which again sounds like an ability with no downsides (without knowing any details though).

The problem with the elite riflemen commander is in my opinion that it buffs the US army in every stage of the game: Early vetted rifles are obviously amazing, who then gain even more utility with flares and flamethrowers in the mid game and then you also get an amazing tank for the lategame (without teching!)

My proposal: Make the elite riflemen commander overall lategame focused by giving a high CP (5 maybe?) cost to the current elite rifles and leave them otherwise untouched.

You will still need to play well with your early rifles to vet them up and they still benefit from their increased mid game utility.

Elite riflemen will become situational but not obsolete and are then great to replace unit losses.

Soviet Weapon Team:
If overall performances needs to be compensated for reduced durability that is something we could also explore.

Soviet AT guns and mortars feel fine in my opinion. The maxim is the unit that overperforms.

Long Range Combat:
In most situation, units that require closer range will lose too many men on approach resulting in a significant drop in offensive performance...

...if you dont use cover or shotblocking objects while you close in. And that is exactly how it is supposed to be. Coverplay is great with the current long range combat situation and close combat troops still perform amazing and will destroy long range units if they flank/ are used properly.

So I feel that it is quite perfect at the moment, and I'd actually make Sturmpioneers even more squishy on approach just for the sake of gameplay (while certain buffs (price /reinforcement reduction) would be necessary to counterbalance this, because I dont think that Sturmpios are OP)

I am really glad that Relic has identified these issues. They're some of the most common complaints in the game atm so seeing Relic recognising the issues and working to resolve them is great to see!

Elite Riflemen: Bringing them more into line with Elite Troops, it would make more sense from a balance standpoint to give them an ability akin to 'Troop Training', but only applicable to riflemen squadrons. Being limited to riflemen squadrons, making the gas expense cheaper, somewhere around ten to fifteen, would be required.

Same double-edged sword as Elite Troops, you can still have veteran troops on hand, but you'll be furthering the time needed before getting vehicles/officers out on the field.

i worry about this too. but american teams are 4 men and i assume they have no modifiers like received accuracy or armor. so i guess it could work? but if this is going to fly, make zis fire rate at least a little higher. also change maxim crew's have behavioral state like mg42 and not like an at gun, so that it doesn't go round and round when resetting up, do not drop the gun when they retreat, and plus making maxim squad members spread out.

The americans don't rely on their support weapons as much as soviets do. Americans actually have infantry that can go head-to-head with axis infantry. On top of that they get extra squads for free with their teching system. The best non-doctrinal soviet infantry are penal troops, who are worse than vanilla rifle men. You can upgrade your rifle men with light machine guns and bazookas to make them stronger and able to tackle tougher axis units like LMG grens or a variaty of OKW elite troops. With soviets you can't. Half the doctrines don't have guards or shocks and using these doctrines puts a big emphesis on support weapons to do the job where non-scaling conscripts and penals can't.

im here for the weapon teams only.

while i hate the maxim (not because its op, lol. its just boring and dull to fight these. for me coh is about infantry fighting each other with the help of a few support weapons..not about flanking dozens of mgs in some weird "commandos" knock-off.) i wouldnt mess with the soviet squad sizes.

BUT (theres always a huge but, isnt it?) i would reduce the crew of captured weapons. if the 6 man squad is partially justified by soviet weapons performing worse than the german ones, german weapons in soviet hands should not need the additional 2 man

The americans don't rely on their support weapons as much as soviets do. Americans actually have infantry that can go head-to-head with axis infantry. On top of that they get extra squads for free with their teching system. The best non-doctrinal soviet infantry are penal troops, who are worse than vanilla rifle men. You can upgrade your rifle men with light machine guns and bazookas to make them stronger and able to tackle tougher axis units like LMG grens or a variaty of OKW elite troops. With soviets you can't. Half the doctrines don't have guards or shocks and using these doctrines puts a big emphesis on support weapons to do the job where non-scaling conscripts and penals can't.

American support weapons are also extremely flimsey. Two obers is all it takes to walk straight into the cone of fire of a browning and just overpower them. I always have to use two aiming in the same direction or in a building just to make sure the OKW blobs don't just walk right up to them and kill the gunner.

Hi,

This is great news, are you looking for feedback on these topics only or other areas as well?

there will be more post like these for other items but we want targeted feedback on certain issues on at a time

when i was in the army and we had to fuck of like a retreat and we were behind a mg we would grab the ting and dragg it the fuck out of there.. i wanna see that in game as wel. no more packing up your gun chilling standing stil for 1 second. no get your mg and get the fuck out then i would have no problem with a 5 man maxim squad but maby just maby. dont make it 4 or 6 make it a 5 man squad?

there will be more post like these for other items but we want targeted feedback on certain issues on at a time

I just wonder how much of this feedback you take into consideration, given previous threads like these were pretty much early "patch notes" that weren't always spot on changes thou its always welcome to see threads like this one.

Elite Riflemen: I like the idea of rifles gaining vet faster rather than just calling in vet rifles

Soviet Weapon Teams: Why not 5 man teams? or must it be an even number?

Long Range Combat: haven't really found this to be too much of an issue except for maybe vs. obersoldaten

I play mostly 4v4 3v3 and a bit of 2v2 and a few 1v1. Elite riflemen need nothing changed from what just was done about CD from the beginning I will give you that. I have been using rifle commander from the beginning and I can tell you they are NO WAY over powered even the way they were earlier dispathed from the start that is just fn crazy a kubel and a strumpioneer EASILY can beat an rear echelon troop and a vet rifle squad. The kubel can easily pin them both even then the sturm pioneer just runs up and insta kills the eche pinned then they focus the riflemen or you try to attack the kubel and the strum just repairs it while the kubel eventually forces you to retreat. Also a vet riflemen even in cover does NOT beat a strumpioneer 1v1 if the guy is some what smart at all even if I am in cover all he has to do is run up close to me and the riflemen cannot run away to get more distance as he will just chase me. Riflemen cannot also try to garrison in the house as the strum can insta kill him by just getting close (this i've never understood from the get go) especially in maps like ettlebrook where you don't really have a choice of being distant from strums. I would often pair my immediate vet rifle with my eche cause for some reason together there dps was high enough I could beat the strum 2v1 but usually the eche had to retreat before it was over. Why was the eches volley fire nerfed?? We cannot have a pinning early unit but okw can??? WTF?? Also people are talking about making them cost fuel ARE YOU PEOPLE FN NUTS. You realize all the US officers cost fuel to tier up and it take us FOREVER just to get to hard countering units for the okw especially artillery (m8 howie). Sure we can get light vehicles somewhat fast maybe but by then there is already shrek mobs. Someone else said vet riflemen shouldn't be allowed until mid game. Again FN crazy okw inf is way over powered now even more than before and okw can still mob because of there better vet rankings there survivabilty and dps is FAR better than riflemens even equiped with bars. There inf also seems tough enough that it will survive most artillery and katushas even with the buff of the katusha. Another DUMBASS idea was ramping up the katusha and not just nerfing the walking stukka which is what should of happened. So USF cannot blob because we will have entire squads erased okw can because they will survive a katusha most times especially obersoldaten that are almost invinceable especially when vetted and put in blobs. USF inf cannot EVER beat okw inf even if we outnumber them.

Why was there resource rates raised for okw (for not being able to use abilitys or upgrade so said)!?!??! WTF i've never seen an okw have a problem tossing a nade getting panthers out later or multiple king tigers or upgrading weapons on their squads. Now they seem to have as many panthers and heavy armor for as many easy 8's or shermans I can produce. Our advantage was in numbers to beat there armor and now you take that away from us. It is just a crock of shit. Maybe in 1v1 USF stand a chance but I am doubting it now. In team games you might as well not play allies if you want to win I swear everyone at relic is nazis and dosen't listen to any of the allied played complaints only the axis players cause they complain they might lose a few games and appear only happy if they win 99% percent of the time.

Oh and now they are trying to nerf the soviet weapon teams too why not I mean they are sooo op...

Can't really comment on Elite Riflemen only seen then a few times but I think it should either Cost fuel similar to elite troops, as 20MP for Vet 1 or close to Vet 2 is silly, 20 MP for a vet 2 squad? No brainer. Or make it like in alpha where they took longer to build, or have a higher CP cost to use, maybe make it a later game ability to replace lost squads.

Soviet Weapon Teams: Maybe drop it to 5 but no lower, personally I'd recommend lowering Maxim's damage at long and maybe mid range, slightly lower is suppression as I've seen it suppress a max range in the first or 2nd burst. Other than that I see no real issues with Soviet Mortar crews, and the only thing I dislike about Zis is it having Anti-Infantry useage as well no other AT gun gets that, it just makes Soviets feel too flexible and not punishable for building the "wrong" units at the "wrong" time.

Maxim's have very fast set up time, (seemingly) better damage and suppression than MG42, a much faster response time and reload time. The only advantage the MG42 has in its current state is Arc, but it also has very low aim/reaction time and its damage and suppression are not up to par.

Long range Combat: Not sure about a "fix" or change for this, without either making mid/short range too strong, or just gimping long range units too hard, again I don't see this as an issue, other than maybe Riflemen at long range their base rifles are very strong for a "mid" range weapon at long range, and the 30cal is very very strong since you can have 2 per squad they might need a toning down a bit. I'd like to see a small buff to Volks damage/accuracy at longer range, and maybe a very small nerf to riflemen's at long range, it is ment to be a close/mid range unit after all - If rifles do get a nerf in this regard, they should get those stats back at maybe Vet 2 or 3? So it means they are slightly worse at long ranges early game, and can't just walk up to volks and win every single time, even when they walk through red up to a volks squad in green (These kind of tactics need to be punished, try running at rifles in green through red with sturms, you'll lose 2 models before you get close)

Edit: Lol @ Rockets post, Allied fanboy alert

Let me fix something for you, because why it was made like this in the first place is beyond me.

The Maxim and MG42 teams should have exactly the same range. This, this is the most broken thing in this game. The Maxim outranging the MG42 negates the MG42 entirely. It's currently a fairly useless unit. Both MG teams should have 4 men. MG42 with the wide arc, quick suppression and lower damage then the Maxim. The Maxim with the smaller arc, slower suppression but higher damage then the MG42. They should both setup at exactly the same rate. This is a mechanic that leaves one unit winning over another every time based on the summer alone. Negating anything to do with the actual player.

The fact that both sides have an MG for early game lane lockdowns, yet one outranges the other is the most frustrating and unfair POS thing in this game. Play as Wehrmacht on Steppes and try cap that island when facing Maxim spam. You know? I can deal with Maxim spam fine if my MG can range them as well. As it stands, getting that fuel point against early Maxim spam is just plain infuriating and me, along with a few other, just simply quit the game. Because it's not fun. It's boring and a waste of time.

And don't talk to me about flanking or mortars. Flanks get caught in more maxims and getting enough mortars to deal with the maxims is such a huge MP suck it leaves you lacking for any early armor.

All of these issues require some attention. people here that say the maxim is fine are incorrect. this is the only support weapon that is not supporting but is being an infantry group all by itself. people that say the maxim can be destroyed by superior german firepower fail to understand that the maxim like the mg42 are not supposed to be attacked.

maxim has more range than mg42?

~Reserved for Napalms comments. Mad math going on.~