Broken balance - Soviets vs OKW
Posts: 2807 | Subs: 6
Now let's look at Soviets vs OKW (because they will give us most imbalanced games)
OKW has no proper and cheap early AT weapon stuff, raketenwerfer has low range and it doesnt provide green cover as other AT gun does, it can be garrisoned in building (which is the only good thing probably for that unit) but it's not enough because Soviets can get OP M3 in first minutes and it's unkillable by all HQ units except this weak raketenwerfer. Volks are cheap version of grens and they cant penetrate M3, Kubelwagen dies in 1-2 bursts from M3 and sturmpios have low health.
Conscripts, penals and maxims seem to be doing well vs OKW. Cons are very similar to Volks, Penals were always good vs Ostheer grens so with Volks they have bigger chances and there's no unit (except low health Kubelwagen) to pin them and soviets can get 6 man maxim squad which insta pins Volks and they can be flanked properly only with Sturmpios, but it's random, depends if the Maxim is supported by cons or CE's.
Now is the worst part of it... Fuel income - OKW will always suffer from Fuel income, bigger tanks costs too much (first real tank Jagdpanzer IV costs 135 which in real values [not counting their reduced incomes] it's like 170-180 Fuel), other vehicles are mostly useless in late, med game when enemy armour hits the field and this doesnt affect Soviets, why? because they have 100% Fuel income and first T-70 can hit the field at like 13 mins? at that time OKW can only afford raketenwerfer and maybe Shrecked Volks, nothing else. Had a game where i was crushing soviet player, but then KV-8 hit the field, had raketenwerfer in building, it barely fired 2 shots and was dead, Volks with shrecks fired once and had to retreat, Puma couldn't penetrate it's front and had troubles with rear (and ofc Puma is penetrating T34-85 with E.Z, logic relic pls) then IS-2 hit the Field and it took out mine 2 raketenwerfer in front.
Well, I believe that Relic will do something about it (I doubt it tbh) and finally stopped doing these retarded ideas all the time (a.k.a "it's awesome stuff" - Relic) that screws the game and then they release tons of patches (and they are proud of that...)
Posts: 1705
Posts: 1705
Nerf for elefant is more damaging than isu,though it remains to be seen if isu still 1 shots at 70 range.
Posts: 240
the only way to counter that is all faction have similar tier structure
HQ: different upgrade
Tier 1: infantry and some support weapon
Tier 2: some support weapon and light vehicle
Tier 3: medium vehicle and medium tank
Tier 4: Heavy tank, tank destoryer and indirect fire vehicle
all tier structure will be linear,player dont really care about the different tier structure of each faction, they do really care if it is good unit.
this will solve almost everything and easy to balance, Relic, however, choose a hard way
Posts: 578
competely agree with Barton, more different faction, more difficult to balance,
the only way to counter that is all faction have similar tier structure
HQ: different upgrade
Tier 1: infantry and some support weapon
Tier 2: some support weapon and light vehicle
Tier 3: medium vehicle and medium tank
Tier 4: Heavy tank, tank destoryer and indirect fire vehicle
all tier structure will be linear,player dont really care about the different tier structure of each faction, they do really care if it is good unit.
this will solve almost everything and easy to balance, Relic, however, choose a hard way
Why not just have 1 faction? Perfect balance.
Posts: 1705
competely agree with Barton, more different faction, more difficult to balance,
the only way to counter that is all faction have similar tier structure
HQ: different upgrade
Tier 1: infantry and some support weapon
Tier 2: some support weapon and light vehicle
Tier 3: medium vehicle and medium tank
Tier 4: Heavy tank, tank destoryer and indirect fire vehicle
all tier structure will be linear,player dont really care about the different tier structure of each faction, they do really care if it is good unit.
this will solve almost everything and easy to balance, Relic, however, choose a hard way
This would kill all versatility.
Posts: 8
Posts: 1571
Not sure about how to counter the M3 hell. I'll try to figure out something tomorrow.
Posts: 42
Posts: 4928
Without target tables you cannot balance 4 factions. Relic should have kept the factions seperated. But they feared that it would split the already small community into two campsNot separated, but they shouldn't have scrapped the target tables, I'm not sure why they did. Simplicity I suppose. But balancing 4 factions is anything but simple.
Posts: 101
Posts: 2053
Posts: 612
Posts: 101
Technically, the puppchen allows OKW to counter early M3's better than Ostheer. And the Jagdpanzer... hmm... If OKW is lucky to pull it out fast enough, it could destroy medium tanks before they do too much damage, but OKW's lack of medium vehicles is highly noticeable. Yes, soviet tanks cause huge damage when OKW does not have available enough counters to it. (Again, Jagdpanzer is great for it, but soviet armor will beat it to the battlefield). However, the puppchen satisfies me in that role. And yet, i see AI, yes - AI, pull a fast m3 on an Ostheer teammate, and he quits.
The flak halftrack and the puma seem like decent medium tanks, the flak halftrack is like an ostwind for half the price.
Posts: 2053
Posts: 42
Maxim spam is hard to counter because OKW have no cost effective units to fight off maxim spam. This is because the infantry support gun for its cost (420) simply cannot keep up with the number of maxims soviets can put out. One support gun can't handle 2-4 6-man mg teams in an engagement. Volksgrens are exactly what the maxim counters, and their grenades are too expensive for their effect. Kubels simply die to the maxim's dmg, it doesnt matter if they flank and get a suppression. Sturmpios have no utility (no smoke, no grenades) to assault maxims, so maxims in structures or covering each other are very hard to fight.
So t1 OKW don't have tools to deal with spammed maxims, and the t2 ISG is too expensive and slow to take out high numbers of the 6 man maxim squad. How about t3 armor? Well, the flak ht does crazy dmg, but it's extremely vulnerable when the soviet field gun arrives due to its setup and teardown time, so it's not a reliable or scaling option. Pumas are okay for flanking i guess, but they certainly take a while to get out. The best counter - the walking stuka - a 100 fuel purchase, can't come until you've likely lost most of the map.
To summarize, I think OKW have a very hard time vs sov t2 earlygame because they just don't have any cost effective units and NO SMOKE until early midgame.
Some helpful tips:
Don't ever buy kubels vs soviets. T0, T1 and T2 sovs have easy counters to them.
Have at least 2 sturmpios early for better flexibility vs all soviet tiers. 2 sturms can actually do very good damage against a charging scout car, and if you expect scout car spam you should definitely get a raketenwerfer (hold fire until the cars show up to avoid being spotted and flanked). Sturms also have a chance to flank maxims before soviets fortify a position with 3 or 4 of them.
Make sure you use the puma's superior range and mobility against t34s. Like the US's tank destroyers, you have to kite and outrange with the puma. Dont forget smoke if things turn bad!
If you can survive to midgame, obviously falls or obers are powerful units that can go toe to toe with any soviet unit. 2 upgraded obers can shoot maxim gunners before they can fire back, basically countering their own counter.
Panzerfusiliers can spot units from far away. Use this to avoid picking fights you won't win, pick off isolated units, or hit them with indirect fire.
I do think OKW have a very strong lategame, so they aren't without hope. But earlygame is rough. I guess i just cant stop whining about maxims haha.
Posts: 1063
Posts: 342
Permanently BannedAnd they have taken out ISU152 and simply replaced it agian with IS2 which will dominate vs tiger which for some reason has been nerfed.
The biggest insult was only change t-34-85 to CP 10 with no nerfs at all.
2 months, this is by far the most disappointing patch ever.
ISU152 will simply be replaced by IS2 Spam. Guaranteed.
its bad enough sovs have so much flexibility with the units they can get, especially infantry wise. and all are way to effective for their price. In addition to the fact that they always have so much spare munitions to consantly use thier abilities while OH struggle due to expensive upgrades
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