Soviet Revision.

Problem: M3 Scout Cars

I found that having a mobile, high dps scout car, that can carry troops and arrive right when the game starts to be a problem in this game. It's one of the reasons I didn't like the British factions because of the bren carrier that rips infantry to shreds.

The Soviet M3 Scout car comes out too early because the Germans don't have a decent counter until t2, which takes a while when German players are constantly losing manpower while they're waiting for it. Even when the Germans get their own scout cars the Soviet players can bring in guards or conscripts that could put an immediate stop to it. T1 Germans isn't sufficient enough to take on the M3, they can only hold it off while suffering heavy casualties. It's easy to kite away from panzerfausts, and even if the M3 get's hit by a panzerfaust it still limps away killing pursuing grenadier because the gun is very powerful.

MGs are easily flanked by a M3 even after the patch. You can simply back away while suffering light damage then go around the firing range and flank it. It takes a bunch of grenadiers covering the MG to protect it, and even then it still makes it impossible for the Germans to advance because the MG is constantly setting up while the M3 is backing away from the Grenadiers so the MG cannot fire at the M3 at all. It's no wonder why Gren Spam is so common.

Problem: T70

Since the T70 comes out the same building as the T34 there aren't many reasons to get a T70. The only reason to get a T70 is because it comes out slightly faster, and that it does consistant damage to infantry unlike the T34 that either miss completely or kills most of the squad. The problem with the T70 is that there is only a narrow window of opportunity to use it before a Panzer IV comes out and kills it. That's if both players are on equal fuel income.

It's only really good when you already took full map control from the enemy and do decent enough damage that the enemy couldn't afford good AT, but it seems a bit cheesy and a T34 can do just as well.

Problem: Soviet Snipers

This one's already obvious I've talked about this A LOT.

Soviet Heavy tanks:

This has been talked about many forum users already come up with good solutions.



Solution Early Game:

In order to fix most of these problems the Tech patterns have to be changed with the Soviet faction. What The T70 and the M3 really is, two inferior versions of the big ones. The T34 is the all better choice than the T70 while the M2 is the better choice over the M3 once it's obtainable.

Also for these changes it would be better if the Soviet Faction would start with the same amount of resources as the Germans.

T2 for the Soviet Faction should turn into T1, and the cost of the building should also cost the same as the German T1 building. This would put the factions into a better equal footing, and retain some asymmetry as well. Penal squads should be moved into this building as well.

The new T2 building should cost 200 manpower and 60 fuel (If this is not good put in your own suggestion.) This building should have the sniper (One man please.) The M3 scout car should also come out of this building, you can even allow the sniper to get back in the car again because at this point the Germans should already have a counter. The T70 should also be placed in this building, but the T70s armor should become inferior. In real life it's a tiny deathtrap with thin armor that moves just as fast as a T34, even the Soviet generals are still wondering why they were still building it.

The T70 should have less armor so the German Scout car has a chance to defeat the T70 because the T70 comes out a lot earlier. Less armor doesn't mean less health, A German Pak Gun would still kill the thing in two shots. The T70 should also cost around the same as the German Scout Car. I think this change is reasonable.

Just like the American motor pool, The Soviet faction does not need to build the T2 building to get to T3 or T4 and the Soviet faction can skip T1 to go straight to T2.

Solution Late Game

As before the Soviet faction can choose to go either T3 or T4, however, with small changes. The T3 building should have the SU85, T34/76, and the M2 Halftrack. The T34/76 tank provides anti infantry while the SU85 provides anti tank power. The T4 building should have the T34/85 tank, the SU76 tank, and the Katyusha.

The Doctrines that contain the T34/85 should replaced with an ability can calls in two T34s that cost the same as two T34/76s, but you can get the chance of getting either one T34/76 and one T34/85 or two T34/85 or two T34/76s.

The T34 cost and performance should not be so close to the Panzer IV because the only difference is the Panzer IV is a little luckier with RNG. I don't know if the penetration profiles work at all because the Panzer IV rounds sometimes bounce off the T34 and point blank range. I thought it's supposed to be like higher penetration at close ranges but it just doesn't seem like range makes a difference. It just seems like whatever range you're in RNG will just determine the outcome you're just a little bit luckier with the Panzer IV. I think it would be better if players can make better estimations to which tank can triumph the other, like a T34/76 being a lot weaker to the Panzer IV but the T34 should be around 260 mp and 80 fuel. The player knows it will be a bad idea to engage the Panzer IV with only one T34 so he waits for another one. The Panzer IV will be able to penetrate the T34 at all ranges but the T34 gets a 90 pct of penetration on the front at point blank range, but 50 pct from afar. Something like that. Also the T34's damage should be reduced to 140. This way the Panzer IV user will be trying to keep his range but the T34 user will try to get closer and since the T34 is noticably cheaper the Soviet player will not miss his T34 as much when it get's destroyed.

Nice post, but unfortunately nobody is listening. There's no way Relic will make such changes any more, the only thing that is going to happen are minor balance changes and they will be few and far between.

You're right the Soviet faction is a complete fail on behalf of Relic, well COH2 is really, but for me the Soviet faction design and gimmicky abilities combined with their heavy reliance on doctrines is what makes the game a mediocre one instead of being a great game. Then you have all the badly designed game mechanics to go with the poor faction design, ie pathing, at nades and fausts, button, poor designed maps, mines, and units with one shot wiping potential.

The Relic introduced P2W Commanders that are intentionally imbalanced so people will buy them, it's good marketing that's all, just money. Now with the release of Western Front Armies Relic has the chance to make even more money by making them OP so people will buy the expansion. I mean who would buy it if they introduced two new weak factions?

Unfortunately if you are looking for a game with strategic depth real time, then COH2 is not the game you are looking for. But if you are looking for a game that requires superior tactics to win, then COH2 is certainly the game for you.

Problem: M3 Scout Cars

I found that having a mobile, high dps scout car, that can carry troops and arrive right when the game starts to be a problem in this game. It's one of the reasons I didn't like the British factions because of the bren carrier that rips infantry to shreds.

The Soviet M3 Scout car comes out too early because the Germans don't have a decent counter until t2, which takes a while when German players are constantly losing manpower while they're waiting for it. Even when the Germans get their own scout cars the Soviet players can bring in guards or conscripts that could put an immediate stop to it. T1 Germans isn't sufficient enough to take on the M3, they can only hold it off while suffering heavy casualties. It's easy to kite away from panzerfausts, and even if the M3 get's hit by a panzerfaust it still limps away killing pursuing grenadier because the gun is very powerful.

MGs are easily flanked by a M3 even after the patch. You can simply back away while suffering light damage then go around the firing range and flank it. It takes a bunch of grenadiers covering the MG to protect it, and even then it still makes it impossible for the Germans to advance because the MG is constantly setting up while the M3 is backing away from the Grenadiers so the MG cannot fire at the M3 at all. It's no wonder why Gren Spam is so common.

Entirely true. I found myself abusers of this tactic, in 2v2 I was 2 times confronting with 3 SC in the same time after the first 3 minutes. If your opponents know what to do with that SC, you will lose big time start game. 1 soviet SC it's not a problem but 3 working together it's hell and unbeatable but untill it's to late. They had a solution for german SC counter later in game, by placing that cheap soviet mines on road with the engies that garrisoned the soviet SCs and the german SCs on their trails were blown to sky. They added in this guards. Me and my partner lost ground and in 10 minutes we were reduced to few MP points near base. After this, soviet armor came and it was gg. Verry dangerous exploit tactis, verry hard (if not impossible) to beat. I met this combo 2 times whle having 2 different partners and every time was the same story and same result.

I dont know why dont they move Scout car to T1 and mortar to T2, this M3 tactic is hella hard to counter in the early game

My only hope at this point is that the expac will contain factions that aren't point&click adventures.

I dont know why dont they move Scout car to T1 and mortar to T2, this M3 tactic is hella hard to counter in the early game

Oh, you know, because it would be reversed situation, but exponentially worse, because you'd commit less resources for similar effect.

Show Spoiler

"Solutions": not worth to answer since we all know at this stage is strange to see a unit swap from tiers.

Problem M3:
Cover - don´t chase M3.
Houses - there´s no flamer till 60muni
MG - that´s how you stop an M3.
Faust - don´t faust unless you are sure you can kill it or you have something to follow it up.
Spreading - that´s the worst thing you can do against it.

T2
That´s the reason i don´t use extended T1 on 2v2. Go for a quick 222, minesweepers and see what they are using his munition on. No flamer? Be ready for mines/DPs.

For those who say they can have AT nades, duh, micro on the same way they micro their M3.
Guards: outside the M3 they are not a problem (unless spammed on which you should get other answers) cause they take so long to aim. Inside an M3 they have more burst damage but you have more DPS. Play around this.


Sigh, why people don´t ask for advice instead of just trying to change the game to fit their style?
You realise that what you are asking for is just throwing away all "balance" and start from 0 right?

I dont know why dont they move Scout car to T1 and mortar to T2, this M3 tactic is hella hard to counter in the early game

Uhm, because then Soviets would be forced to go T2 ASAP every single game.

I love the current T70 and really don't see why some people think having the T34 in the same building somehow makes T70 obsolete. I make T70s all the time even after I have T34s on the field.

Building balance would probably be improved by swapping SU76 with either the halftrack or T70 (because these two vehicles have an even more similar role to each other than T70 vs T34, and T4 has zero anti-inf right now), but meh.

Swapping SU76 with halftrack/T70 is actually quite a good idea, and I agree that T70 is pretty good right now. It can be risky to get one if you don't have decent AT, but in a lot of games it's certainly worth it to get one.

"Solutions": not worth to answer since we all know at this stage is strange to see a unit swap from tiers.

Problem M3:
Cover - don´t chase M3.

No problem, it will decimate your squads from safe distance

Houses - there´s no flamer till 60muni

Minsk Poket?!? More than this, how can I cap teritory from a house?

MG - that´s how you stop an M3.

Aham. What about flanking? What about several M3s flanking? I know, i know, guard it with grens or with other Mg in the back. Yes, but I will be pinned in repelling attacks while soviets will slowly cap 70-80% of territory and gaining the upper hand.

Faust - don´t faust unless you are sure you can kill it or you have something to follow it up.

Results I should never use the PzFaust.

Spreading - that´s the worst thing you can do against it.

Of course but this ain't a solution and again... territory capping will suffer.

For those who say they can have AT nades, duh, micro on the same way they micro their M3.

Perfect, but I'll never reach the M3 because it's guarded by cons or guards.

Guards: outside the M3 they are not a problem

I don't know why are you saying this, because they are usually put between its retreating M3 and my attacking SC.

Sigh, why people don´t ask for advice instead of just trying to change the game to fit their style?
You realise that what you are asking for is just throwing away all "balance" and start from 0 right?

Thank you for your effort, but none of these "solutions" didn't work for me.

T70 is a bad ass.

Its amazing when you 'skip' T1/2 and rush for an early T70.


Its the fact it comes out a bit sooner and then has better mobility than a T34, plus better damage vs inf that makes it so important to a fast T3 build.

Even if I have fuel for a T34 when I get T3 up, i will still get a T70. They fare much better vs paks too which is ussually your opponents main counter.

Into later game they are great at dealing with flank harrasment, or sweeping in late in a battle once the main AT has been neutralised.


And M3 isnt that bad. Just keep your units close together. Id easily swap the M3 for having the 222 in teir 2.

T70 is an amazing tank it just requires a lot of micro. It is like a sniper on tracks.

About the M3 I have the impression you all need to "chase" the M3 or kill it, if you set up MG correctly and position grens correctly you can easily negate M3 dmg. Just do not send in units chasing it one by one and play very carefully.

I find that m3 unbelievably annoying in hands of skilled players.
Also, when the m3 comes out, there is no ammo for faust.

Fuck M3.

T70 is an amazing tank it just requires a lot of micro. It is like a sniper on tracks.

About the M3 I have the impression you all need to "chase" the M3 or kill it, if you set up MG correctly and position grens correctly you can easily negate M3 dmg. Just do not send in units chasing it one by one and play very carefully.

You can negate M3 dmg maybe, but soviet snipers will eat you alive if you dig in in Tier 1.

T70 is a bad.

fixed.

Don't get me wrong, T-70 is fine stat-wise, but its tremendous cost(the 66% of T34 cost) doesn't make it appealing really in games where you didn't dominated your opponent already in early game.

T-70 cost a shit ton of fuel and can't last 3 hits, it can't even repair engine damage anymore from a single faust like it used to since release(pfaus buff patch where pfaust was buffed greatly, but T-70 self repair was never adjusted making it most useless ability in game for any armored unit).

Its high reward extremely high risk unit now that it costs almost as much as StuG.

T-70 could use a price cut down to 55 or 60 fuel.

No problem, it will decimate your squads from safe distance

Minsk Poket?!? More than this, how can I cap teritory from a house?

Aham. What about flanking? What about several M3s flanking? I know, i know, guard it with grens or with other Mg in the back. Yes, but I will be pinned in repelling attacks while soviets will slowly cap 70-80% of territory and gaining the upper hand.

Results I should never use the PzFaust.

Of course but this ain't a solution and again... territory capping will suffer.

Perfect, but I'll never reach the M3 because it's guarded by cons or guards.

I don't know why are you saying this, because they are usually put between its retreating M3 and my attacking SC.

Thank you for your effort, but none of these "solutions" didn't work for me.

It doesnt decimate squads at long distance if, again, you put them on cover.
I just gave you another option which people don´t use. Either the M3 stays doing nothing (first 5 mins are the ones you can do the most damage) or moves out. Micro.

If the option is possible, an MG inside a house can´t be flanked by an early M3. MG - Gren, M3 can´t get close. If he pulls back, push forward and focus first on the CE which is probably nearby.

This was always the case, don´t "give" munition to your opponent.

You can cap with a lonely unit on the back while you push with your army capping territories which are close enough to have units supporting themselves.

The same thinking process as snipers. Take your time, you don´t need to boom rush and kill the M3 inmediatly.

Look at previous answer.

If anything, i´m glad to see early M3. Even better more than 1. That means i don´t have to play around the ol double sniper opening.


I don´t say it´s the PERFECT answer, but for ME it works.

Nice post, but unfortunately nobody is listening. There's no way Relic will make such changes any more, the only thing that is going to happen are minor balance changes and they will be few and far between.

All Relic needs to do is switch the units around the tiers then make slight balancing adjustments. Relic did move units around Tiers before, do you remember that the Elefant and the Tiger used to be in T4 buildings? and the Panzerwerfer used to be T3? The past shows that they are able to make the adjustments.

The Soviet Faction is unfinished and Relic completely abandoned them either because they don't know what to do with it, or they are completely satisfied with the faction ( which they shouldn't be)hence I am giving them ideas to improve and fix the faction.

All Relic needs to do is switch the units around the tiers then make slight balancing adjustments. Relic did move units around Tiers before, do you remember that the Elefant and the Tiger used to be in T4 buildings? and the Panzerwerfer used to be T3? The past shows that they are able to make the adjustments.

The Soviet Faction is unfinished and Relic completely abandoned them either because they don't know what to do with it, or they are completely satisfied with the faction ( which they shouldn't be)hence I am giving them ideas to improve and fix the faction.

So simple!

All relic has to do is something that they will never do!

Also, that was back in the beta, before the release, you know, betas are exactly made for that.
Never tier switching happened after release.

Stop deluding yourself that any tier or doctrine changes will happen, they won't, relic have stated that enough already.