Lets talk Pgrens.

Could somebody illustrate concretly just how to properly utilise PGs? I cannot for the life of me see much point in them. As for Shocks, ye, you can run away from shocks all day long, try to bait them over neg cover etc., but with similar skill that still wont cut it....

You have to use them on the flanks of the enemy. The pg are best used at medium range. This is the ideal range for their assault rifles and bundle nade. Use them to flank at guns, support teams and tank hunting. Try to think of them as special forces or vanilla grenadiers with a different weapon load out for specific tactics. You can also put 2 squads in a half track and drive behind enemies to deploy and annihilate.

There are several reasons why I believe they should not get an armor buff.

1. Doctorines

- You can use pg blobs economically with the correct doctorines. For example, if you use the infantry doctorine you can use the rapid movement + officer + ostruppen reinforce to rape the battlefield and get manpower returns on the losses.

- Also there are doctrines that give you pg/grenadiers in armoured transport.

- There are doctrines with assault grenadiers. These are the infantry you use to assault close quarters not pg.

2. Panzer shreks

- panzer shrek blobs with increased armor + doctrines will break the game. Throw in superior german armor to exponentialy deliver cheese. Play vcoh if you want to feel the power of airborne rr or pg shrek blobs. Spam at its finest...

3. Superior german armor

- ost already has the best armor, core infantry and at infantry (pg). Now players want pg to get armor too?


Summary

You have to change the way you perceive pg. Yes it sucks that you can get squad wiped as an ost player when using pg. But as an ost player it's the armor that pushes your line forward not pg. The pg job is to flank the at guns and or kill tanks depending on their load out. They are very effective when working in conjunction with all elements of the ost army.

You have to use them on the flanks of the enemy. The pg are best used at medium range. This is the ideal range for their assault rifles and bundle nade. Use them to flank at guns, support teams and tank hunting. Try to think of them as special forces or vanilla grenadiers with a different weapon load out for specific tactics. You can also put 2 squads in a half track and drive behind enemies to deploy and annihilate.

There are several reasons why I believe they should not get an armor buff.

1. Doctorines

- You can use pg blobs economically with the correct doctorines. For example, if you use the infantry doctorine you can use the rapid movement + officer + ostruppen reinforce to rape the battlefield and get manpower returns on the losses.

- Also there are doctrines that give you pg/grenadiers in armoured transport.

- There are doctrines with assault grenadiers. These are the infantry you use to assault close quarters not pg.

2. Panzer shreks

- panzer shrek blobs with increased armor + doctrines will break the game. Throw in superior german armor to exponentialy deliver cheese. Play vcoh if you want to feel the power of airborne rr or pg shrek blobs. Spam at its finest...

3. Superior german armor

- ost already has the best armor, core infantry and at infantry (pg). Now players want pg to get armor too?


Summary

You have to change the way you perceive pg. Yes it sucks that you can get squad wiped as an ost player when using pg. But as an ost player it's the armor that pushes your line forward not pg. The pg job is to flank the at guns and or kill tanks depending on their load out. They are very effective when working in conjunction with all elements of the ost army.

Well an entire wall of nonsense. Even if you increase the armor of the pg's it will not lead shrek blobs like vcoh. That because any infantry unit in the open will drop faster then your girlfriends panties at my place. Shreks will always be support . either you use them as extra damage when tanks are dueling or you use them to cover the flanks of a pak.

However we are not here to discuss the PG AT but its AI. and that should be on par with the grens and assgrens. which it clearly is not. you can say use them as flankers but i guarantee you that grens with lmg's will get the job on by attacking head on will do more damage and with less mp drain

@Wehrwolfzug: Äh, well. I concur with Jaigen. Of course I've heard and tried all that, but at the end of the day, show me what you do with PGs and I will do it more economically and more safely with LMG grens - to include clearing out weapons teams etc.. As for the German Inf. doctrine, really? It is quite possibly the single most useless in the game. God knows I tried to make it work for shits and giggles, but it is an exercise in futility. And Osttruppen reinforcements (slash rapid conscription)? Have you ever seen this ability used in serious competitive play? Ye, me neither, and this is for a reason.
I don't think anybody advocates turning PGs into carbon copies of Shocks, but right now the only role PGs can reasonably perform is indeed that of auxiliary AT, and thats a bit lackluster from a design standpoint.

Do I really need to make a video to show you what I have written? What do I get from putting in all that work in?

Infantry doc is not useless. It's just when people play competitive they use the most effective cheese. Most high level players use p2w commanders and just because infantry doc is not a p2w commander does not mean it is crap.

Start up the game, use a 2 pio and 2 mg start into quick tier 2. Build only pg and officer for your blob. Try to cache ammo as the infantry doc relies heavily on ammo. Get rapid movement, pop officer ability and proceed to rape battle field with pg + flame pio + officer blob retreat any squads when they get to two men.

Rinse and repeat until you get ostruppen, use ostruppen to recrew at guns and support weapons stolen from enemy. Just try it out against the CPU until you get some practice.

Like I said before you can also put two pg squads in a half track and deploy in range and then bundle nade or rush enemy. The half track soaks the damage and allows you to reinforce. I just don't know why I should have to show you how to do this when you can fire up the game and try it out.

Try against the CPU until you get a few dry runs doing it. Try to remember it is war and not every strat works perfectly, especially against humans who have an uncanny ability to kick your but online. A lot of variables can throw many different starts off. That why people cheese with p2w commanders. It is safer but boring and lame.

Do I really need to make a video to show you what I have written? What do I get from putting in all that work in?

Infantry doc is not useless. It's just when people play competitive they use the most effective cheese. Most high level players use p2w commanders and just because infantry doc is not a p2w commander does not mean it is crap.

Start up the game, use a 2 pio and 2 mg start into quick tier 2. Build only pg and officer for your blob. Try to cache ammo as the infantry doc relies heavily on ammo. Get rapid movement, pop officer ability and proceed to rape battle field with pg + flame pio + officer blob retreat any squads when they get to two men.

Rinse and repeat until you get ostruppen, use ostruppen to recrew at guns and support weapons stolen from enemy. Just try it out against the CPU until you get some practice.

Like I said before you can also put two pg squads in a half track and deploy in range and then bundle nade or rush enemy. The half track soaks the damage and allows you to reinforce. I just don't know why I should have to show you how to do this when you can fire up the game and try it out.

Try against the CPU until you get a few dry runs doing it. Try to remember it is war and not every strat works perfectly, especially against humans who have an uncanny ability to kick your but online. A lot of variables can throw many different starts off. That why people cheese with p2w commanders. It is safer but boring and lame.

Are you seriously advising to play vs the AI to finetune a strat or do you just want to show your condescension? May I inquire at what level you are playing, broadly speaking? Because any solid player will shut that kind of play down with either just conspam or T1 and proceed to camp your cutoff before you even have t2 up...since you have neither capping nor serious fighting power and Mgs dont do terrible DPS either - provided they dont get flanked in the first place. And FYI, I do not use any but the standard commanders in either faction, and German Inf. remains in my opinion the weakest of the lot.

If Panzer Grens are so bad, why do lots of the popular streamers build them?

Start up the game, use a 2 pio and 2 mg start into quick tier 2. Build only pg and officer for your blob. Try to cache ammo as the infantry doc relies heavily on ammo. Get rapid movement, pop officer ability and proceed to rape battle field with pg + flame pio + officer blob retreat any squads when they

So in the current meta where m3's are the most powerful units in the early game you wish to start with a strat that gives no defence to it . also the fast teching is impossible. HT + PG is indeed a viable way for some decent support weapon kills but it is also extremely risky compared to much more reliable and more powerful gren lmg push + HT.

So i really want to see a replay.

Are you seriously advising to play vs the AI to finetune a strat or do you just want to show your condescension? May I inquire at what level you are playing, broadly speaking? Because any solid player will shut that kind of play down with either just conspam or T1 and proceed to camp your cutoff before you even have t2 up...since you have neither capping nor serious fighting power and Mgs dont do terrible DPS either - provided they dont get flanked in the first place. And FYI, I do not use any but the standard commanders in either faction, and German Inf. remains in my opinion the weakest of the lot.

I am sorry I can no longer or help you. I have tried at great length to provide advice and encouragement to try something new and quite frankly your attitude sucks. If you want to be top players bracket then purchase a p2w commander and copy what the top ten guys are currently cheeseing. Boom now your problems are solved and you are high level.

There is no set build to win at this game. War is fluid which means your build will vary depending on the situation at hand. The more diverse options you have in your pool of tactics the better you will be able to respond. I provided a variable option that in the right scenario could be executed with pg to great effect.

If you wanna try new things and explore more options in the coh2 world have to change your attitude and open your mind a bit more. I am sorry I failed you comrade.

If Panzer Grens are so bad, why do lots of the popular streamers build them?

1 word : flexibility. The problem is that if you buy a pak before your opponent gets a tank out then you have a pak that is doing nothing. PG are still useful AI till the tanks start to roll out then they are converted as tank busters,

paks and zis' normal direct fire does decent AI and suppression- just like tank fire. It's just that they run the usual risks of getting decrewed

The Pzgrens' panzershreck upgrade and late game scalability is factored into the cost. If it was just a pure Assault squad like AG then it could be priced cheaper.

With the Germans, I find that their most cost effective units now (current meta) are Grens w/upgrade, Stug III G, Tiger.

paks and zis' normal direct fire does decent AI and suppression- just like tank fire. It's just that they run the usual risks of getting decrewed

The Pzgrens' panzershreck upgrade and late game scalability is factored into the cost. If it was just a pure Assault squad like AG then it could be priced cheaper.

With the Germans, I find that their most cost effective units now (current meta) are Grens w/upgrade, Stug III G, Tiger.

I think they should stay the way they are and just a slight cost decrease. They are easily the best flankers on the Ost side. They just lack durability and cost a kings ransom and need alot of expensive reinforcement.

@Katitof

Yes their price to performance was too high so they got adjusted. But their armor was taken down alot and their cost is still the same. I like that they take losses so they can just run up with their insane DPS but they drop off too much imho. So they arent viable on the assault. They do work well on the defense better than LMG grens but not better enough for most ost players to justify their cost.

So make them slightly cheaper and keep the performance the same. Its not like the dark days after the moving nerf where shrek blobs could counter T34s all by themselves without a single loss. They actually TAKE LOSSES now...and due to their cost not alot of people like to make them unless they are top 100 (or sick in the head like me I still love them).

I think they should stay the way they are and just a slight cost decrease. They are easily the best flankers on the Ost side. They just lack durability and cost a kings ransom and need alot of expensive reinforcement.

@Katitof

Yes their price to performance was too high so they got adjusted. But their armor was taken down alot and their cost is still the same. I like that they take losses so they can just run up with their insane DPS but they drop off too much imho. So they arent viable on the assault. They do work well on the defense better than LMG grens but not better enough for most ost players to justify their cost.

So make them slightly cheaper and keep the performance the same. Its not like the dark days after the moving nerf where shrek blobs could counter T34s all by themselves without a single loss. They actually TAKE LOSSES now...and due to their cost not alot of people like to make them unless they are top 100 (or sick in the head like me I still love them).

+1.

pgrens' AI dps is amazing. the only problem is pgren initial cost is tad high and reinforcement cost more than tad high.

Do I really need to make a video to show you what I have written? What do I get from putting in all that work in?

Because we want to see your unusual and seemingly unstable strat in action against actual people, rather than only take your word for it. Even if it does work, you're blobbing and spending 200 munitions to maintain that blob and it's effectiveness. That doesn't mean it's working, that sounds like the opposite of working to me.

Start up the game, use a 2 pio and 2 mg start into quick tier 2. Build only pg and officer for your blob. Try to cache ammo as the infantry doc relies heavily on ammo. Get rapid movement, pop officer ability and proceed to rape battle field with pg + flame pio + officer blob retreat any squads when they get to two men.

What if the Soviet goes for Scout Cars or Snipers? You'll bleed hardcore before you can really get your strat off the ground. There's a reason German early-game is nearly identical for every game, T1 counters German T1, so there's a very small window of what is viable as Germans. For the most part, that means Grenadier spam into Scout Cars.

Infantry doc is not useless. It's just when people play competitive they use the most effective cheese. Most high level players use p2w commanders and just because infantry doc is not a p2w commander does not mean it is crap.
It's way too munitions heavy. 4/5 of the abilities are munitions, 3/5 cost 120 or more. In total it's 460 munitions to use every ability once. It's poorly designed and that is why it isn't used, it has nothing to do with "P2W".


Like I said before you can also put two pg squads in a half track and deploy in range and then bundle nade or rush enemy. The half track soaks the damage and allows you to reinforce. I just don't know why I should have to show you how to do this when you can fire up the game and try it out.

Flame Pioneers can do this more effectively and fix the Half-Track afterward.

The Pz Grens are essentially grens with assault rifles. In the old game, this was actually an upgrade that cost munitions. The ARs are worth at least as much as LMG42s. This game puts the price multiple of Munitions vs MP @ 4 to 2 x in various areas.

I think they should stay the way they are and just a slight cost decrease. They are easily the best flankers on the Ost side. They just lack durability and cost a kings ransom and need alot of expensive reinforcement.

They aren't supposed to be line infantry that soak it up- they are specialized for flanking runs. If the game has people spamming PzG instead of grenadiers, then the meta is broken.

PzG should be 2 squads max IMO. There should be twice as many grens as PzG.

With the Germans, I find that their most cost effective units now (current meta) are Grens w/upgrade, Stug III G, Tiger.

I haven't played lately* but I've been watching a lot of streams and casts lately, and I can agree that Grenadier heavy play into StuGs or Tigers is definitely a pattern I've seen in almost every game. Generally it goes 2 ways:

Grenadier Heavy > T2 Heavy > Tiger
Grenadier Heavy > Scout Car > StuGs
(In Team Games, an Elefant is often thrown in, and promptly destroyed by an ISU and ZiS Spam)

*It's Summer, I have no AC in this room and a faulty graphics card that crashes when it gets too hot. No games for me

The Pz Grens are essentially grens with assault rifles. In the old game, this was actually an upgrade that cost munitions. The ARs are worth at least as much as LMG42s. This game puts the price multiple of Munitions vs MP @ 4 to 2 x in various areas.

Explain this please, I don't follow. What is "the old game" and what does "the price multiple of Munitions vs MP @ 4 to 2 x in various areas" mean?

The Pz Grens are essentially grens with assault rifles. In the old game, this was actually an upgrade that cost munitions. The ARs are worth at least as much as LMG42s. This game puts the price multiple of Munitions vs MP @ 4 to 2 x in various areas.



They aren't supposed to be line infantry that soak it up- they are specialized for flanking runs. If the game has people spamming PzG instead of grenadiers, then the meta is broken.

PzG should be 2 squads max IMO. There should be twice as many grens as PzG.

Then let them be glass cannons. they are the frailest and most expensive CC troops out their with no ability to close in liek sprint or smoke. if they manage to get a flank of their damage should be brutal. the only way i can see that happening is if they get 100 FOTM

They are basically grenadiers with an AR upgrade that's worth around 60 muni.

An interesting question to the people who think the PzG are overpriced would be if they would buy the PzG if they were 240 Manpower, 60 muni. Then the panzershreck unlock would need the AR 60 muni buy first, so PzG w/PzS would total 240 MP, 180 Muni.

But the problem here is cheap MP PzG spam would break the balance quite badly, so the PzG must be priced higher in the MP department

Munition points are obviously rarer and are worth more than manpower. Some of the munitions to manpower conversations show that, that's how relic values them as well.
.

Oh, I understand. Although personally I don't think I'd spend 60mun on the AR's in their current form. LMG is a much better investment and doesn't require you to babysit as much.

^^
I personally think that the problem is not PzG or Grenadiers, but the lack of non-doctrinal large squads like Osttruppen. The German's weakness is squad wipes due to explosions and manpower bleed.

The paks, mortars, and MGs need engineers to recrew economically but the units must be at full entity (4) which isn't always possible. It's just much easier with a cheapo 6 man squad.