Lets talk Pgrens.

Omg, is this wehrwolfzug, a Katitof with another account ?? And as always, you guys are giving your opinions but not your ranks... Pzgren just need a little bit of their armor back, maybe a bit less than 1.2

you dont provide your stats either

They are the same squishy ness as grenadiers because they are grenadiers with a different load out. They are just as survivable as Grens with g43' except they do not have a rifle nade. And if not having a rifle nade makes them too squishy then I proves my point that the rifle nade is the issue just like I said it was.

Except they're better because their Rifles and MG 42 let them fight at Long Range. Yes, they're just as squishy, but they're more effective because of their range advantage.

In coh1 storm troopers cost the same and you had to pay for the assault rifles upgrade and the panzer shreks separately. In coh2 you get the assault rifles free for the same cost as storm troopers in coh1.

In CoH1, Stormtroopers with 2x MP 44 upgrade were the BEST AI Infantry in the game. They put Knights Cross Holders and PE Assault Grenadiers to shame. If you imported them into CoH2, they'd tear Shock Troops to pieces. They are absolutely not comparable to CoH2 Panzergrenadiers.

If anything, Panzergrenadiers are comparable to weaker PE Assault Grenadiers.

I also want to point out that the Bundle Grenade in CoH1 and the Bundle Grenade in CoH2 are also very different. The Bundle Grenade in CoH1 was a small demo charge, the one in CoH2 is just a slightly larger Grenade.

Again the extra cost for pg is the free assault rifles, bundle nade ability and the ability to upgrade them to the best at infantry in the game. The high reinforce cost is to prevent spamming.

And in their current state, the Assault Rifles make them more difficult to use, not less. Grenadiers and Panzergrenadiers have the same health and armour stats, but Grenadiers are long range and Panzergrenadiers and close. Why are you not understanding this?

The high cost and reinforcement cost makes them undesirable. If you want close combat troops, you're better off with a Flame Pioneer squad. Or are Flame Pios OP too and we should remove the Flamethrower upgrade?

Grenadiers never had these issues and I still cannot figure out why relic thought grenadiers needed the rifle nade ability in the first place. And for those who say because soviets have molotovs. Let me remind you that it is the german panzer elite who had flame nades in coh1 and the Americans did just fine without a rifle nade because it is a crap ability that only works on below average skilled players.

Like I said before, CoH1 Grenadiers are not comparable to CoH2 Grenadiers. They share similarities only in name and squad count. Their role is significantly different as are their abilities and weapons. Also:

1. PE Incendiary Grenades did not have a chance to instant kill, they only did slow DoT and were not a "remove support weapon" button.
2. Are you forgetting about the nuclear pineapple? Or are you implying it should replace Rifle Grenades, because I wouldn't argue with that:

I clearly said that the cost upfront for panzer shreks is because you do not have to pay for each use unlike panzer Faust where there is no cost upfront and therefore they are pay per use. I am not sure why you cannot clearly comprehend that? Maybe the idea is not borderline retarded, maybe it is your lack of ability to understand this simple concept.....

The free assault rifles do not entice you because you have issues with simple match/economics and basic flanking tactics. You should not speak for anyone as you are insulting their basic cognitive thinking abilities by comparing theirs to your own. Any infantry squad can flank if the player has the mental aptitude to move a mouse cursor and click on the map using a little map and situational awareness.

Conscripts flank all the time even without Oorah.

Flanking is all about high risk high reward as you essentially send units behind the enemy. PG are to much of a risk you better send a pio squad.

Flanking is all about high risk high reward as you essentially send units behind the enemy. PG are to much of a risk you better send a pio squad.

Risk vs reward is true. However in your risk assessment you must also factor in your flamer getting a bad critical hit and blowing up your pio squad or becoming useless. Personally I would choose the pg squad as a bundle nade will pretty much squad wipe the enemy in a few seconds. Assault rifles will kill what's left. You may lose a few models of pg troops but you will most likely have vet. Retreat and heal. Now you have a vet pg squad, and double shreking a vet pg squad is very lethal against tanks that you will flank with side or rear shots.

It is kind of like choosing which grenadier squad to upgrade with the lmg. I always upgrade the squads with vet first. They are more likely to stay alive better and kill better which vets them up even quicker. Works with pios too if you do a double pio start. Upgrade to flamer on the first pio squad that gets vet.

Another trick when flanking with pg is to have a damage soak squad to be just ahead of you pg squad. Should be enough time to get that bundle nade or shrek golly off. I use pios without flames or ostruppen for this purpose as they are cheap and easy to reinforce.

Pgrens were always shit

/thread

Risk vs reward is true. However in your risk assessment you must also factor in your flamer getting a bad critical hit and blowing up your pio squad or becoming useless. Personally I would choose the pg squad as a bundle nade will pretty much squad wipe the enemy in a few seconds. Assault rifles will kill what's left. You may lose a few models of pg troops but you will most likely have vet. Retreat and heal. Now you have a vet pg squad, and double shreking a vet pg squad is very lethal against tanks that you will flank with side or rear shots.

It is kind of like choosing which grenadier squad to upgrade with the lmg. I always upgrade the squads with vet first. They are more likely to stay alive better and kill better which vets them up even quicker. Works with pios too if you do a double pio start. Upgrade to flamer on the first pio squad that gets vet.

Another trick when flanking with pg is to have a damage soak squad to be just ahead of you pg squad. Should be enough time to get that bundle nade or shrek golly off. I use pios without flames or ostruppen for this purpose as they are cheap and easy to reinforce.

Lovely you just assume he will eat the bundeld nade. also vet does shit for shrek grens. and thx for the veterancy lesson captain obvious. and the rest is not even relevant to the cost effectiveness of the pg which is non existent.

Pgrens were always shit

/thread

You can't just /thread your own post. That's not how it works man!

Except they're better because their Rifles and MG 42 let them fight at Long Range. Yes, they're just as squishy, but they're more effective because of their range advantage.



In CoH1, Stormtroopers with 2x MP 44 upgrade were the BEST AI Infantry in the game. They put Knights Cross Holders and PE Assault Grenadiers to shame. If you imported them into CoH2, they'd tear Shock Troops to pieces. They are absolutely not comparable to CoH2 Panzergrenadiers.

If anything, Panzergrenadiers are comparable to weaker PE Assault Grenadiers.

I also want to point out that the Bundle Grenade in CoH1 and the Bundle Grenade in CoH2 are also very different. The Bundle Grenade in CoH1 was a small demo charge, the one in CoH2 is just a slightly larger Grenade.



And in their current state, the Assault Rifles make them more difficult to use, not less. Grenadiers and Panzergrenadiers have the same health and armour stats, but Grenadiers are long range and Panzergrenadiers and close. Why are you not understanding this?

The high cost and reinforcement cost makes them undesirable. If you want close combat troops, you're better off with a Flame Pioneer squad. Or are Flame Pios OP too and we should remove the Flamethrower upgrade?




Like I said before, CoH1 Grenadiers are not comparable to CoH2 Grenadiers. They share similarities only in name and squad count. Their role is significantly different as are their abilities and weapons. Also:

1. PE Incendiary Grenades did not have a chance to instant kill, they only did slow DoT and were not a "remove support weapon" button.
2. Are you forgetting about the nuclear pineapple? Or are you implying it should replace Rifle Grenades, because I wouldn't argue with that:

I do admire the effort you are putting forward with this discussion and it makes for healthy balance ideas however I feel you missing a few key concepts here.

I never said storm troopers and panzer grenadiers were exactly the same because they are not. They are even named different. However I had pointed out the cost as some people are claiming that pg are not cost effective and that they do not do their job which they do.

First off you must pay for ST assault rifles. When the game was released you did not have assault grenadiers so these troops filled that role. I would also like to add they were doctrine specific. As for the better bundle nade having more explosive power it was because the allies were able to build mg nest that could be garrisoned along with trenches so you needed a little extra oomph.

The current state of the coh2 assault rifles do not make them harder to use. They are medium range which means longer range damage which you pointed Grens have an advantage because of range yet some how extra range for pg is bad. Pg still have great damage at short range, just better mid range because they are not shock troops. Mid range is roughly bundle nade range.

Toss the bundle nade and kill with assault rifles after. If the enemy is rushing your pg in cover to close distance ex soviet shocks, then you toss the bundle nade from defensive cover. Either the shocks take massive damage or they evade and take massive damage because they are still at range and ineffective. I would say coh2 pg are a hybrid of coh1 panzer grenadiers and storm troopers. So I would be carefull to claim they are more one than the other.

Again the high reinforce cost is to stop spamming and if you cannot come out on top of the manpower war of losing two models to an enemy squad wipe you are doing something wrong. That's not a balance issue. That's a player issue.

Also the pg initial cost is really not that much higher than Grens as you will only build one or at most two pg squads through an entire game. The extra 120 mp is easily justified for the potential damage you can inflict on the enemy via bundle nade, assault rifles or duel panzer shreks. You take out one at gun or tank and you have pretty much made your manpower back. We will not even begin to add the psychological factor it adds as now you can lethally flank the enemy. Heck you could easily wipe a guard sqaud with them. Shocks can be taken out if pg are used correctly.

And once again I will point out if you want to blob Grens you can use doctrines that make it more economically viable such as the infantry doctrine. People seem to forget about the doctrines that also ad the stealth ability which makes pg even more powerfull.

I just hear a lot of exaggerating on how bad pg are yet it seems like very few people have actually spent the time working with them and testing the doctrines that boost their performance either.

@wehrwolfzug

Player card please. I wanna see how manny games you played in COH2, I'm very very curious because I can't explain to myself how someone can post such quantity of crap. I'm not even interested what faction you've played most. People can judge me after my player card, I don't give a (...), but at list I'm showing it every time I post something. So please, let us wait no more. And make sure you post your own, so we won't be forced to investigate and discover you put your friend's card.

@wehrwolfzug

Player card please. I wanna see how manny games you played in COH2, I'm very very curious because I can't explain to myself how someone can post such quantity of crap. I'm not even interested what faction you've played most. People can judge me after my player card, I don't give a (...), but at list I'm showing it every time I post something. So please, let us wait no more. And make sure you post your own, so we won't be forced to investigate and discover you put your friend's card.

Not that hard Bro: http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561197970528819

you dont provide your stats either

Learn to click on the little soldier under my profile image...

Seeing your stats, not even playing germans ONCE, juste leave this forum of balance wherewolfzug, or at least stop saying stuff like if you know anything from germans.

You can't just /thread your own post. That's not how it works man!

/thread oh shit what the fuck by some magic i did it again. Pgrens were never cost effective since beta. Their general cost is to much and their upkeep is crazy. Their panzershrecks are good and have sniping range but since their a 4 man squad they get raped by soviet armor you get like 1 volley
Off then ur forced to retreat back to base for more insane upkeep

Seeing your stats, not even playing germans ONCE, juste leave this forum of balance wherewolfzug, or at least stop saying stuff like if you know anything from germans.

I am realy disappointed because tbh this guy knows how to write, but unfortunatelly doesn't know shit about what he's writing.
I believe in the right of anyone to write or post, but ffs, they should wait to play a little more before writing an entire wall of nonsense. It's just common sense.

Learn to click on the little soldier under my profile image...

Actually we can not

Learn to click on the little soldier under my profile image...

You've set it to private

You've set it to private

this.

this.

Oh, i'm really sorry man so. Thanks for noticing it.

Ahah i'm telling all people to show their ranks or gtfo without having mine set to public, someone should've told it to me earlier