Lets talk Pgrens.

Wehr wolf zug.

A username I created because I played over 7000 games as a Wehrmacht player in coh 1 and the thousands of hours invested in researching and reading about the Wehrmacht in ww2. I do not think I am an expert. You do not need to be an expert to understand basic concepts like flanking with a squad in the coh world.

On the contrary I am a staunch defender of the german factions. The previous shit patches caused an influx of no talent, no skill one click lemmings to flood the ost player base. Now that the german faction is getting closer to a respectable faction all the cry babies are having troubles coming to grips with reality. But we are not there yet. Just have to fix a few abilities that continue to hold players hands and give them get out of jail free cards. Aka rifle nades.

http://allworldwars.com/Small-Unit-Actions-During-German-Campaign-in-Russia.html#237

Here do some reading yourself and learn how real german company commanders actually used squad tactics. Also read the report about the peculiarities of the russian fighting force written by a general. It will help you understand the design concepts of the german and russian factions in the game.

That was a pretty cool link

Ok reporting you to the mods. Maybe then you will care to stop trolling and derailing the thread.

The Germans weren't stupid when they created those weapons. They observed that the full power of a rifle round was going to waste when most combat happened at ranges less than 300 meters for the average soldier. So the new rifles while less powerful were still very effective at ranges below that, which they were intended.

If we're going off real-life, then the MP 44's should work just as well at max range as they do at close range. But we're not going off real-life, so you can close that argument right now.

Lets see

That was a pretty cool link

Yeah I was very impressed with the material. I really enjoyed the report on the Russians. It was very in depth and unbiased. I hope relic reads it some day as it would really help with the russian faction design. So cool reading real action reports from small companies that were really there in the moment. What worked and what did not work ect.

Just love reading the battles where wave upon wave of russian infantry would have to crawl over their fallen comrades. Some of the waves had bodies stacked waist high. That's something you think only happens in Hollywood but it was really happening to these companies of german soldiers.

^
German Cold War, US-written tactical accounts on the behavior of the 'Soviets' (not Russians- the Germans were also so daft to call the British..'the english') should be approached with heavy caution.

This extends from Balck to Guderian to Raus.

The bias is very strong- The US interviewed these commanders to learn about 'successful' engagements. The Germans rarely talked about when their tactics failed and they tend to excuse away their defeats. The Germans also have very little insight and military intelligence on Soviet forces past the summer of 1941.

What is bad tactics of the day could be good implementation of a larger scale operation or strategy. IMO, learn about Soviet forces from modern russian sources, and learn about German forces accordingly.

^
German Cold War, US-written tactical accounts on the behavior of the 'Soviets' (not Russians- the Germans were also so daft to call the British..'the english') should be approached with heavy caution.

This extends from Balck to Guderian to Raus.

The bias is very strong- The US interviewed these commanders to learn about 'successful' engagements. The Germans rarely talked about when their tactics failed and they tend to excuse away their defeats. The Germans also have very little insight and military intelligence on Soviet forces past the summer of 1941.

What is bad tactics of the day could be good implementation of a larger scale operation or strategy. IMO, learn about Soviet forces from modern russian sources, and learn about German forces accordingly.

To start with, you are of course correct that contemporary German perception of the Soviet approach merits particular caution and has its intrinsic limitations - thats historiography 101. But:
When it comes ie. to the intelligence picture, German insight actually increased exponentially past the beginning of Barbarossa, (before the war it was in most respects abysmal - as evidenced by the fact that it underestimated Soviet strength by almost 50 %) and so did the quality of FHO, their assessments of Soviet strenghts, casualties, and intentions proved by and large fairly reliable whereas the Soviets often operated in the realm of fantasy. The official Soviet history of the Great Patriotic War makes for interesting reading in this regard. As for the alleged German reluctance to discuss their failures or apologetic tendencies in general, this has some truth to it when it comes to particular generals' memoirs (ie. von Manstein etc.), but in general, it is quite simply wrong. If anything, if one constrasts the German tactical treatments, lessons learned etc. with their Soviet counterparts, one is struck by the German willingness not only to discuss their own personal, operational and doctrinal failings but also by their acknowledgments of perceived Soviet superiority in several fields - even though the Germans overall, unsurprisingly, perceived themselves as superior. Soviet analogues on the other hand often, for the lack of a better word, appear borderline bizarre and read more like hagiograhic accolades interspersed with agitprop jargon then serious military literature - for instance, failures (if discussed at all) are virtually never explained in terms of German agency or performance but at most by material shortages, and more commonly by misapplication of political derivatives/"military science" or the shortcomings of certain vilified individuals...

If you read German, look up ie. Middeldorf, Eike: "Taktik im Rußlandfeldzug", and go from there.

Paintball MP44!!!

While I don't think PGs are very viable, Mp44 isn't exactly lacking in its damage output....

MP 44s are alright,its the squad thats underperforming for price.

MP 44s are alright,its the squad thats underperforming for price.

They are the same cost as storm troopers in coh 1. Which is the same unit essentially. It's not pg under performing, it's grenadiers over performing. Pg are the same as grenadiers except they have specialized weapons. For the extra cost of pg over grenadiers you get the bundle nade, assault rifles and the ability to quickly upgrade them to best antitank infantry in the game when you have a chance to take a tank out. That's a pretty good return on your investment.

You can squad wipe infantry in seconds and kill light armor in one volley and medium tanks in two. What else do you want them to do? Stuka strike?

They are the same cost as storm troopers in coh 1. Which is the same unit essentially. It's not pg under performing, it's grenadiers over performing. Pg are the same as grenadiers except they have specialized weapons. For the extra cost of pg over grenadiers you get the bundle nade, assault rifles and the ability to quickly upgrade them to best antitank infantry in the game when you have a chance to take a tank out. That's a pretty good return on your investment.

You can squad wipe infantry in seconds and kill light armor in one volley and medium tanks in two. What else do you want them to do? Stuka strike?

We spend fukin 120 muni for AT capability and it completly finishes it as an anti inf unit.So yeah we deserve everything we get.Coz its still so very susceptible to whole squad wipe vs armour.There goies 340 MP and 120 muni in 2 tank shots.

As for AI it gets wiped/retreat itself before it does much wiping.This is not coh 1.Unit pricing is different.Stormtroopers were doctrinal and had stealth.Plus the bundle nade was relatively far lethal.It was the one squad wipe potential grenade in coh 1.

On grens ,this is where u showed ur soviet fanboyism.Panzergrens with 340 mp and the toilet sink reinforcement cost...Germans have been nerfed to one last remaining infantry unit...but even that isn't enough to satisfy you.So now u need grens to be 'fixed'.Well know this...take away grenadiers and the tiger and no one will play german.You can enjoy ur fake dominance.

They are the same cost as storm troopers in coh 1. Which is the same unit essentially. It's not pg under performing, it's grenadiers over performing.

It was never a problem during the Soviet T2 meta, when you could use MG's and Mortars without worrying about M3 spam although double Sniper was still a problem. Even when they have 1.2 armour nobody complained about them or Grenadiers. Now that they're too squishy to do their job (which nobody can agree on what their job actually is anymore), suddenly Grenadiers are OP?

Yeah, no. And if you want to nerf Grenadiers so hard, I hope you also plan to nerf everything else to balance is out, otherwise Ostheer will be in for one hell of a ride.

On the contrary I am a staunch defender of the german factions.

Just have to fix a few abilities that continue to hold players hands and give them get out of jail free cards. Aka rifle nades.

Because I am a staunch defender of the german faction too, I propose in adition:
- replace Hq cons with Hq shock troops. I mean, what chance would have poor cons against those deadly pios and grens? Soviets should win every engagement;
- make the T34/76 similar in performance with Tiger;
- allow ISU 152 to be built from soviet T4;
- eliminate the Elefant and Tiger from game! This is an insult to soviet good noobish players.
- transform Stuka 50 kg bomb into a 0,5 kg bomb;
- Pz grenadiers are to strong, make them to be as good as osttruppen;
- Panther should have no better performances than a T70.

It was never a problem during the Soviet T2 meta, when you could use MG's and Mortars without worrying about M3 spam although double Sniper was still a problem. Even when they have 1.2 armour nobody complained about them or Grenadiers. Now that they're too squishy to do their job (which nobody can agree on what their job actually is anymore), suddenly Grenadiers are OP?

Yeah, no. And if you want to nerf Grenadiers so hard, I hope you also plan to nerf everything else to balance is out, otherwise Ostheer will be in for one hell of a ride.

They are the same squishy ness as grenadiers because they are grenadiers with a different load out. They are just as survivable as Grens with g43' except they do not have a rifle nade. And if not having a rifle nade makes them too squishy then I proves my point that the rifle nade is the issue just like I said it was.

You pay munitions for the panzer shrek upgrade but you pay munitions because you do not have pay each time you use them unlike the panzer Faust. In coh1 storm troopers cost the same and you had to pay for the assault rifles upgrade and the panzer shreks separately. In coh2 you get the assault rifles free for the same cost as storm troopers in coh1.

Again the extra cost for pg is the free assault rifles, bundle nade ability and the ability to upgrade them to the best at infantry in the game. The high reinforce cost is to prevent spamming. The squad does a great job in the hands of a skilled player.

I didn't say nerf rifle nade. I said make rifle nade doctrine specific as this one ability allows ost users to bypass pg for killing At guns, weapon support teams or dug in infantry. The rifle nade is from coh1 British faction. It was given to the British for an upgrade cost and cost per use. It was given to the British because the Brits had a movement penalties without officers. In short they could not flank. So an ability was needed and well deserved.

Grenadiers never had these issues and I still cannot figure out why relic thought grenadiers needed the rifle nade ability in the first place. And for those who say because soviets have molotovs. Let me remind you that it is the german panzer elite who had flame nades in coh1 and the Americans did just fine without a rifle nade because it is a crap ability that only works on below average skilled players.

They are the same squishy ness as grenadiers because they are grenadiers with a different load out. They are just as survivable as Grens with g43' except they do not have a rifle nade. And if not having a rifle nade makes them too squishy then I proves my point that the rifle nade is the issue just like I said it was.

You pay munitions for the panzer shrek upgrade but you pay munitions because you do not have pay each time you use them unlike the panzer Faust. In coh1 storm troopers cost the same and you had to pay for the assault rifles upgrade and the panzer shreks separately. In coh2 you get the assault rifles free for the same cost as storm troopers in coh1.

Again the extra cost for pg is the free assault rifles, bundle nade ability and the ability to upgrade them to the best at infantry in the game. The high reinforce cost is to prevent spamming. The squad does a great job in the hands of a skilled player.

So an offensive ability somehow is creates better defence? i cannot even begin to comprehend that particular line of thought. But i will correct you. Grens do need to leave their cover. pg do to be effective damage dealers.

Also comparing fausts to shreks is borderline retarded. really the only thing they have in common is that they are used by infantry

Also free assault rifles or smg's for that matter doesnt entice me or anyone. the last patch made cover all important and that pushed infantry that uses lmg's rifles or carbines to the forefront and only made shocktroopers useful in the long run as they are the most durable infantry unit out their but even they got greatly reduced in effectiveness compared to the last patch.

Omg, is this wehrwolfzug, a Katitof with another account ?? And as always, you guys are giving your opinions but not your ranks... Pzgren just need a little bit of their armor back, maybe a bit less than 1.2

I need to show my rank because people cannot take a squad and pull off a simple flank? Sorry I am not top ten on leaderboards. I have a business, a wife, and two sons. I can't sit at my computer eating caffeine pills and energy drinks everyday racking up 1000 matches a month with my p2w commanders. I did all that for years in coh1 and now I am a grown up living in the real world.

I do however take time to play coh2 and come on the forums to discuss balance and help new players. It is the only thing I can get back out of those 7000 matches as Wehrmacht that I wasted my youth on lol. Maybe I will compete again one day when the game is balanced. Until then it is a waste of my time because I no longer get enjoyment from finding a flaw in a game to exploit and climb ladders with. Also I may add that most of the top players in coh1 were busted for cheating eventually. All that grind wasted for absolutely nothing. No money, no hot chicks, no sponsors just a lot of wasted nerd rage hehe.

I play coh out of respect for the soldiers who did the real fighting and to be emersed in a ww2 battle although arcade like.

So an offensive ability somehow is creates better defence? i cannot even begin to comprehend that particular line of thought. But i will correct you. Grens do need to leave their cover. pg do to be effective damage dealers.

Also comparing fausts to shreks is borderline retarded. really the only thing they have in common is that they are used by infantry

Also free assault rifles or smg's for that matter doesnt entice me or anyone. the last patch made cover all important and that pushed infantry that uses lmg's rifles or carbines to the forefront and only made shocktroopers useful in the long run as they are the most durable infantry unit out their but even they got greatly reduced in effectiveness compared to the last patch.

I clearly said that the cost upfront for panzer shreks is because you do not have to pay for each use unlike panzer Faust where there is no cost upfront and therefore they are pay per use. I am not sure why you cannot clearly comprehend that? Maybe the idea is not borderline retarded, maybe it is your lack of ability to understand this simple concept.....

The free assault rifles do not entice you because you have issues with simple match/economics and basic flanking tactics. You should not speak for anyone as you are insulting their basic cognitive thinking abilities by comparing theirs to your own. Any infantry squad can flank if the player has the mental aptitude to move a mouse cursor and click on the map using a little map and situational awareness.

Conscripts flank all the time even without Oorah.