ISU-152 (solution inside)

The original ISU-152 topic got too long and turned into mostly negative stuff. After playing with or against the ISU about 50-70 games I can say the best solution is to:

-reduce range from 100 to 80 (same for elephant)
-reduce front armor from 310 to 250

The reason behind this is to first reduce the insane range this unit has and to make it more possible to attack with infantry not just tanks.

Right now if you try to attack an ISU it will most likely be covered by 2-3 AT guns. In this arrangement, the ISU counters infantry and the ATs counter tanks. Throw in few cheap mines and flanking becomes next to impossible.

If the range and front armor is reduced as suggested this will give a combined arms push a greater chance of success. For example, a player can send one tank from the side and send pg with shreks and 1 or 2 paks from the front and manage to hit it enough shots to destroy it.

Right now if a players attempts to do this, the frontal assault has little chance of reaching the ISU because of it's huge range and IF the units reach many of their shots will bounce (especially shreks) because of the ISU's high frontal armor.

The suggested solution will fix this problem and make ISU/elephent better units in the game.

A range reduction is long overdue, and would improve gameplay.

I think the most important difference between the ISU and the Elefant is this:
If you had a Zis driving to an Elefant without any cover for the Elefant or supporting units the Zis would rape the Elefant in more or less time. Same here with Guards (adding a bit more time) and even Engineers with a PTRS/Panzershreck.

If you had a PaK driving to an ISU without any cover for the ISU the PaK would be ripped apart in one shot. Same for Panzergrens and Pios with PTRS (lol).

In my opinion the main problem is still that there is no single hard counter for the ISU except for the Elefant. There are only soft counters which you have to sacrifice badly to get rid of that tank. Even if you manage to kill it without it having any support you will lose at least a heavy tank and a lot of supporting inf. The Elefant can't do anything against Inf or AT-Guns. That is the difference. And I don't think that reducing it's armour would do a thing because in real games it is having support AT-Guns and Mines and everything and you can't even get in range (without) an Elefant to do at least a little damage without losing every unit attacking.

In my opinion the main problem is still that there is no single hard counter for the ISU except for the Elefant.

The problem is that many guys will disagree with this.
2 well microed PIV's can actually do a lot of damage to an ISU, but than again, who leaves a ISU unprotected?

I'm totally with you on this, a protected ISU is a nightmare.

The problem is that many guys will disagree with this.
2 well microed PIV's can actually do a lot of damage to an ISU, but than again, who leaves a ISU unprotected?

I'm totally with you on this, a protected ISU is a nightmare.

I agree. I managed to even kill one with well executed flank on Moscow Outskirts once and Soviet actually got no chance to even shoot me back once.
The same goes for Elephant however. Well executed flanks with T-34 got potential to kill it. I think these are an example of units that are perfectly balanced in the vacuum but in reality, with correctly executed support, they are over performing.
Tone down ISU's AI capabilities (squad wipes potential) and max range accuracy (or whatever it is) for both so they don't always hit on target at max range.

Hey there.

Well I think that people blame balance instead of design when it comes to ISU-152 and Elefants over performing.

The way I see it it's not the range, nor the AI power of the ISU-152 nor the armour values of both units that cause issues. It's design.
It's just that the maps for 1v1 and 2v2 are way too small with the exception of Rails & Metal for such beasts.

Nerfing the range to 80, the same as a panther (I think, not sure) is a bit unfair for such slow unresponsive tank destroyers and would throw them into abandon again. What's the point in fielding them instead of panthers or SU-85s. Ele & Isu used to be a waste of fuel, now they are finally good.

Moreover an ISU-152 and Elefant with 80 range would lose any advantage over other tanks in huge 3v3/4v4 maps where flanking is commonplace, and rewarding. Reducing the armour of the ISU is unfair if taking into consideration the elefant's armour, something that bugs me seeing that the ISU-152 is based on the IS-2 chassis it, should be as durable. So the front armour is fine as it stands.

Nerfing range is just band aid patching, they would become useless in 3v3 and 4v4 where the huge maps really trump the overperformance of both. Artillery must become viable to counter them, it is the logical and intuitive counter for a strong defensive position. So is reworking the commanders Mechanized Support (SU) and Jaeger Armour (OT) as both have bombing strikes and heavy tank destroyers that instagib artillery positions. But maybe that's asking too much and expecting too much from relic.

Also, I have successfully insta killed Elefants with the IL-2 Precision bombing strike if 3 bombs connect the TD, that's a semi reliable hard counter right there.

Something I wonder is why Relic does not apply different balance values for 1v1 and 2v2, such as Ele/Isu have 80-85 (respectively) range and then appropriate ones for 3v3 and 4v4, such as Ele/Isu keeping the 100 range? That looks like a fair solution to me.

Lastly Relic won't patch this until Western fronts is out. Anyways The new factions will change the ISU/Ele meta.

Cheers.

I think the most important difference between the ISU and the Elefant is this:
If you had a Zis driving to an Elefant without any cover for the Elefant or supporting units the Zis would rape the Elefant in more or less time. Same here with Guards (adding a bit more time) and even Engineers with a PTRS/Panzershreck.

That's actually not true. I just had a game as Russians against an Elefant, and I got into a situation where I could fire 4-5 shots with a stolen pak at that Elefant. Not a single scratch, the front armor is just that strong.

Hey there.

Well I think that people blame balance instead of design when it comes to ISU-152 and Elefants over performing.

The way I see it it's not the range, nor the AI power of the ISU-152 nor the armour values of both units that cause issues. It's design. It's just that the maps for 1v1 and 2v2 are way too small with the exception of Rails & Metal for such beasts.

Yes coh2 has some fundamental design flaws much like opposing front had them, but the suggested solution is to reduce the problem as much as possible.

As for maps we have very few 2v2 maps available and most of them are really 1v1 maps. Sad situation.

Nerfing the range to 80, the same as a panther (I think, not sure) is a bit unfair for such slow unresponsive tank destroyers and would throw them into abandon again. What's the point in fielding them instead of panthers or SU-85s. Ele & Isu used to be a waste of fuel, now they are finally good.

Panther and SU85 have 60 range. Both ISU/ele will still be good with 80 range, its just not so many people will get them because they wont be as easy. They will be specialty units.

Moreover an ISU-152 and Elefant with 80 range would lose any advantage over other tanks in huge 3v3/4v4 maps where flanking is commonplace, and rewarding. Reducing the armour of the ISU is unfair if taking into consideration the elefant's armour, something that bugs me seeing that the ISU-152 is based on the IS-2 chassis it, should be as durable. So the front armour is fine as it stands.

Nerfing range is just band aid patching, they would become useless in 3v3 and 4v4 where the huge maps really trump the overperformance of both. Artillery must become viable to counter them, it is the logical and intuitive counter for a strong defensive position. So is reworking the commanders Mechanized Support (SU) and Jaeger Armour (OT) as both have bombing strikes and heavy tank destroyers that instagib artillery positions. But maybe that's asking too much and expecting too much from relic.

Balancing for 3v3 and 4v4 is next to impossible and yes those commanders have the ability to destory their counter howitzer/pak43 which is ridiculous.

Also, I have successfully insta killed Elefants with the IL-2 Precision bombing strike if 3 bombs connect the TD, that's a semi reliable hard counter right there.

Something I wonder is why Relic does not apply different balance values for 1v1 and 2v2, such as Ele/Isu have 80-85 (respectively) range and then appropriate ones for 3v3 and 4v4, such as Ele/Isu keeping the 100 range? That looks like a fair solution to me.

Lastly Relic won't patch this until Western fronts is out. Anyways The new factions will change the ISU/Ele meta.

Cheers.

The game would become so hard to learn and play in different tiers.

I do agree about maps design being a huge factor as well.

That's actually not true. I just had a game as Russians against an Elefant, and I got into a situation where I could fire 4-5 shots with a stolen pak at that Elefant. Not a single scratch, the front armor is just that strong.

That is strange, Elephant has 400 front armor, pak has 190 penetration, so it should be able to penetrate. This could be just pure rng, but what he is saying is true, AT guns can go face to face with an elephant and win the engagement if there are no support weapon. That hardly can happen with ISU.

i dont mind the long range. the squad wipe is a tad to much. i dont say remove it becuz its a fucking howitzer cannon of a barrel but it can be less if you reduce the reload of ele and isu. make it double as long or triple the reload it is now to have it do pop shits at key targets instead of sniping inf at vp pionts. also make it that every guy with the isu commander and ele can only bring 1 in to the field. as its a rare tank as well. you can get a new one if the old one dies and you can only have to if you got 2 times the needed cp cost for 1

What about Tiger vs. ISU?

What about Tiger vs. ISU?

Only one problem here. Range.

My thought about this is quite simple: put 2 ZIS gun in fron of an Elefant. Elefant has to retreat.
Put 2 PAKs in fron of one ISU. PAKs will be wiped out in max 2 shots per each. Elefant is counter to armor. ISU is counter to everything. ISU OPness gotta go.

I say increase frontal armour to 350, reduce range to 40. CoH2's toughest Assault Gun.

Of course, the Tiger's range is short- but it has great armor, fast rate of fire, high AI, high pen, and the highest HP. It needs to maneuver as close as possible to the ISU to beat it quickly.


Getting an elefant to counter the ISU is very much a reactive, 'me too' strat. Even if the ISU is knocked out, you have this high cost AFV that is poor AI.

Only one problem here. Range.

My thought about this is quite simple: put 2 ZIS gun in fron of an Elefant. Elefant has to retreat.
Put 2 PAKs in fron of one ISU. PAKs will be wiped out in max 2 shots per each. Elefant is counter to armor. ISU is counter to everything. ISU OPness gotta go.

Elefant destroys the game too. You can build it anytime, counters all Armor. Put a HMG next to Elefant and you don't get infantry rushed...

Both units destroy the game imho

What about Tiger vs. ISU?

Too slow. You better of flanking with PzIV while Tiger is a damage sponge and support killer.

^
I don't think P4s work well anymore post-patch. They're too fragile and their pen isn't good enough.

The thing with the ISU is that it is a mobile defensive unit that 'locks' the Soviet player into a defensive line sort of situation; the ISU is there typically with units in support and ISU takes up 24 pop cap.

By responding with the 'me too' tactic of elefant + support units, you have this attrition situation while the two SP guns snipe at each other. The advantage of this, espec. in Minsk goes to the ISU.

On the other hand, you can take advantage of the defensive line lockdown and go Tiger, and try to flank & do close combat against the concentration with combined arms. That's how I see it.

Elefant destroys the game too. You can build it anytime, counters all Armor. Put a HMG next to Elefant and you don't get infantry rushed...

Both units destroy the game imho

Not entirely true. Your HMG will do shit in front of the ZIS guns in my previous example. You can use infantry neither to kill the ZIS guns bercause the ISU behind will erase it. So if you know what you are doing you will slowly push the Elefant with its entire suite to the edge of the map.
An Elefant can deny all armor but an ISU can deny everything. You still can cap in front of an Elefant, you cannot cap in front of an ISU without loosing all infantry that is trying to do that. Capping will win you the game eventualy, not killing the opponent's tanks. Can you put aside your fanboyism a little and see the difference? The other reasons were stated by many before so I won't count them again.
That is the reason for which I am sure ISU is OP but it's quite debatable if Elefant is.

Or...just watch Hans/Ivan vs Ciez/OMGPOP replay and see what Ciez used to counter elefant, 5 ZIS GUNS. Did it success? Yes. How many squads wiped by ISU? (one ISU had 80 kills, the other 30, and the other didnt had enough time on the battlefield)