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russian armor

Soviet Forward HQ is completely broken.

21 May 2014, 09:58 AM
#21
avatar of Chuck Norris

Posts: 93

Yeah as soon as you see it try go cap the rest of the map, ignore it. They want to fight around and near it, not be drawn away. You will have numbers advantage thanks to the cost of the FHQ.

At the same time bombard the building with a mortar.


That's all dandy and fine on paper, but on some maps (Semois, Kharkov) you can't really go someplace else, since the FHQ will be ideally located to cut you off or to force you into an engagement.

Regular mortars just don't deal enough dps in order to take out a fhq defended by a soviet mortar so if you don't get the MHT you're gonna be outgunned and will loose so much map control that the FHQ will have paid off, even if you manage to avoid manpower loses.
21 May 2014, 13:12 PM
#22
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747



That's all dandy and fine on paper, but on some maps (Semois, Kharkov) you can't really go someplace else, since the FHQ will be ideally located to cut you off or to force you into an engagement.

Regular mortars just don't deal enough dps in order to take out a fhq defended by a soviet mortar so if you don't get the MHT you're gonna be outgunned and will loose so much map control that the FHQ will have paid off, even if you manage to avoid manpower loses.


Absolutely correct.
21 May 2014, 13:33 PM
#23
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



That's all dandy and fine on paper, but on some maps (Semois, Kharkov) you can't really go someplace else, since the FHQ will be ideally located to cut you off or to force you into an engagement.

Regular mortars just don't deal enough dps in order to take out a fhq defended by a soviet mortar so if you don't get the MHT you're gonna be outgunned and will loose so much map control that the FHQ will have paid off, even if you manage to avoid manpower loses.


Umm, if soviet goes for early FHQ, there will be no conscrits around the map and no early T2 mortars to defend it.

If soviet goes for T2, there won't be any early FHQ locking the map up until 2 CPs.

If he places FHQ near your cutoff, get around the map and cut off his resources while locking them with MG42 and/or mine field.

FHQ is incredibly easy to counter if you know what to do, it forces soviet player to keep most of his forces near it to defend it, it DECREASES his field presence across the map, allowing you for more room around it.

The only reason why people are having problems with FHQ is it is so damn rare sight that people have no slightest clue on how to react to it.
21 May 2014, 14:02 PM
#24
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2014, 13:33 PMKatitof


Umm, if soviet goes for early FHQ, there will be no conscrits around the map and no early T2 mortars to defend it.

If soviet goes for T2, there won't be any early FHQ locking the map up until 2 CPs.

If he places FHQ near your cutoff, get around the map and cut off his resources while locking them with MG42 and/or mine field.

FHQ is incredibly easy to counter if you know what to do, it forces soviet player to keep most of his forces near it to defend it, it DECREASES his field presence across the map, allowing you for more room around it.

The only reason why people are having problems with FHQ is it is so damn rare sight that people have no slightest clue on how to react to it.


If you read through the tread you will notice that the discussion focuses on the said problematic in a 2v2 context.
21 May 2014, 14:06 PM
#25
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



If you read through the tread you will notice that the discussion focuses on the said problematic in a 2v2 context.


In this case its even easier, because you can coordinate with your team mate to push sov off it(use MG42 to pin) and just walk up to it with flame pio and torch it.
21 May 2014, 18:42 PM
#26
avatar of Chuck Norris

Posts: 93

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2014, 14:06 PMKatitof


In this case its even easier, because you can coordinate with your team mate to push sov off it(use MG42 to pin) and just walk up to it with flame pio and torch it.


Clearly you never played 2v2 games competitively.
21 May 2014, 18:56 PM
#27
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

Um... how often do people even use this commander again? Even i dont know, its that infamous for being bad... barely one player in 10 games.
21 May 2014, 19:02 PM
#28
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

I see it is already being addressed but in team games (2v2+) this commander on some maps is straight up broken. It works sickeningly well in team games by buffing teammates units to staggering levels.

Also to address braciszek's comment, if a commander is broken on one map or only used rarely it can still be OP on that map and that is not fair for the other team.

If you play a team on Faceoff you will find that a blob of Soviet infantry will press forward as one player upgrades FHQ's. Three or four mortars at a FHQ are literally impossible to kill for Ost. How about a shock squad next to a FHQ? Or what about a couple of guards? They also get one as soon as the game starts and it is very hard to push them off the field. Meanwhile the Ost team has to keep retreating to base to reinforce and heal.

I understand this commander is not OP in 1v1, I don't see how it could be, but in team games it is ugly. I would really like to see this commander receive a build time for FHQ's or possibly prevent it from buffing allied units.
21 May 2014, 19:12 PM
#29
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



Clearly you never played 2v2 games competitively.


Guess what?
No competitive player uses FHQ in 2v2.

You know why? Because that doctrine sucks donkey balls for early and late game, offering only some mid game that don't excel at anything.
21 May 2014, 19:17 PM
#30
avatar of Chuck Norris

Posts: 93

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2014, 19:12 PMKatitof


Guess what?
No competitive player uses FHQ in 2v2.

You know why? Because that doctrine sucks donkey balls for early and late game, offering only some mid game that don't excel at anything.


Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Maybe if you actually played the game instead of dispensing theoretical advice on forums you'd know this doctrine is quite useful in skilled hands.

Show me your card before you post any more B/S.
21 May 2014, 19:21 PM
#31
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Show me a single competitive game rep where FHQ was used in either 1v1 or 2v2 and it wasn't "for the lulz".

You're better and more experienced then me, you shouldn't have a problem with that.
I use this doctrine sporadically and have yet to see a single streamer use it outside of 4v4.
21 May 2014, 19:44 PM
#32
avatar of Chuck Norris

Posts: 93

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2014, 19:21 PMKatitof

I use this doctrine sporadically and have yet to see a single streamer use it outside of 4v4.


That doesn't mean it's not used or that it can't be super effective if you capitalize on its strengths. Granted it's not as used as the t34/85s or isu doctrines, but there are some pretty good players who use it well both in 1v1 and 2v2.
21 May 2014, 19:47 PM
#33
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Can you name one? I'd love to look for any of his games or stream.

FHQ is potent, but I can't see how it would be able to actually work against competent player because.
21 May 2014, 20:17 PM
#34
avatar of Chuck Norris

Posts: 93

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2014, 19:47 PMKatitof
Can you name one? I'd love to look for any of his games or stream.

FHQ is potent, but I can't see how it would be able to actually work against competent player because.


I'll try to post some replays this w/e of games it was used against me wisely. You'll see my point then.
21 May 2014, 20:27 PM
#35
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Looking forward to it.
21 May 2014, 21:05 PM
#36
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2014, 19:21 PMKatitof
Show me a single competitive game rep where FHQ was used in either 1v1 or 2v2 and it wasn't "for the lulz".

You're better and more experienced then me, you shouldn't have a problem with that.
I use this doctrine sporadically and have yet to see a single streamer use it outside of 4v4.


Not to jump in here but in larger games, 3v3 and 4v4, if you see it there you know it is too good in that format. In which case to preserve its efficiency at lower levels all you would need to do is remove buffs to allied units.

I really don't like the mantra, balance 1v1 ignore everything else. Certainly balance 1v1, but the game is largely played in formats of large team games so they certainly deserve some time and balances to be made for them.
22 May 2014, 00:19 AM
#37
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3552 | Subs: 2

I think I have seen it twice in 4v4 this patch so it's not exactly common, part of it will be that people are just unfamiliar with it.

I have won once and lost once against it.


First time it did win the Soviets they game because they leapfrogged down the right side of Angermunde

Second time would have been a mirror, but we had MHTs and took it out (also someone who had Luftwaffe spammed supply drops and incendiry barrages)

By mid to late game buildings are very easy to kill
22 May 2014, 02:08 AM
#38
avatar of 1[][]

Posts: 172



I'll try to post some replays this w/e of games it was used against me wisely. You'll see my point then.


Well, at least I know what you're talking about. In 2v2 in certain maps like Semoisky one player goes for the HQ while the other works towards a super heavy ISU. Obviously "just bomb it" wont work because the other player WILL have mortars and snipers. Adding MG and AT to surround his map, while the second player goes conscript/penals then works to guards rifle. Playing offensively while FHQ guy fortifies EVERYTHING.

I've seen it over and over and had a 50/50 win rate cuz either my teammate get irritated and drops, or I just couldn't keep up with the attrition rate of the second player going full human wave attack on me early game.

TL;DR like I said in one game I bombed NEARLY ALL BUILDINGS because EACH ONE WAS A FHQ !
22 May 2014, 02:20 AM
#39
avatar of YouGetGot

Posts: 71



That's all dandy and fine on paper, but on some maps (Semois, Kharkov) you can't really go someplace else, since the FHQ will be ideally located to cut you off or to force you into an engagement.

Regular mortars just don't deal enough dps in order to take out a fhq defended by a soviet mortar so if you don't get the MHT you're gonna be outgunned and will loose so much map control that the FHQ will have paid off, even if you manage to avoid manpower loses.


Played against this on Crossing in the Woods in 2v2. He did a FHQ just outside my base on the bottom left side, across the bridge near the munitions point. Tough to take out - partly because I didn't know he made one, partly because I was going for fuel. By the time he spammed out conscripts and I took out the building with my mortor and Flame Pios, the right side of the map was lost and we were pushed back into our base. Not sure if it would work again but I was shaking my head after that one.
22 May 2014, 07:01 AM
#40
avatar of Chuck Norris

Posts: 93

jump backJump back to quoted post22 May 2014, 02:08 AM1[][]


Well, at least I know what you're talking about. In 2v2 in certain maps like Semoisky one player goes for the HQ while the other works towards a super heavy ISU. Obviously "just bomb it" wont work because the other player WILL have mortars and snipers. Adding MG and AT to surround his map, while the second player goes conscript/penals then works to guards rifle. Playing offensively while FHQ guy fortifies EVERYTHING.



Yes this is a very viable strat for the soviets on Semois and I've been up against it many times.

I think the only times I've managed to beat it (after very hard fought battles each time) was when using a combination of Festung Support (MHTs early game and LeFH late game) and Jaeger Armor (for obvious reasons). However it's quite annoying to face FHQ spam on that map and it takes a lot of work to manage to counter it (much more than the soviets have to do anyway).


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