ISU 152 v Elephant

I say make them unique instead of counterparts. Don't remove the Elefant's range, but make it require a lock down to get the full range.

On the other hand, the ISU could be a heavy assault gun, like a super-Brummbär. Front armour would be nigh impenetrable by anything short of a Pak 43/Elefant, and it'll be an assault unit rather than a camping unit.

Lol at ISU-152 is OP and Elephant is not having 22 votes. The bias is strong.

You genuinely don't believe anybody could actually think that without being a fanboy? Plenty of people have made good arguments to that effect even if they don't like either unit in general.

Elefant has only one purpose, fuck with ISU.

I will choose any other panzers then a damn slow paperweight with a big nose.

Solution imo: Decrease range on both the elefant and the ISU to like 75. Give the ISU a higher scatter ratio so it has a higher chance of missing gren squads. Reduce the dmg output of an elefant so that it's equivalent to a tiger, but give it an option to lock down(like the Marder in VCoH) where it is able to deal the dmg it has done before, but be forced into place. (Takes lets say 8 seconds for it to move out of place once it's put into place at w/e time you decide you want to move it). This allows for both units to still be effective, but with limitations. Arty, multiple tanks, etc... will be able to counter it effectively if unsupported/unwatched.

If lock down takes that long all it takes to destroy it is a guard squad buttoning it for few more seconds before IL 2 precision strike arrives.

If lock down takes that long all it takes to destroy it is a guard squad buttoning it for few more seconds before IL 2 precision strike arrives.

As I've stated it is merely a suggested time, can be changed, though I guess it means that an elefant is counterable now, which is ofc the ultimate objective at hand. This also means defending your elefant/putting it in a good position to fire is priority instead of before where you didn't have to micro and could easily pull it back from harms way.

As I've stated it is merely a suggested time, can be changed, though I guess it means that an elefant is counterable now, which is ofc the ultimate objective at hand. This also means defending your elefant/putting it in a good position to fire is priority instead of before where you didn't have to micro and could easily pull it back from harms way.

I'm not sure how we'd feel about the Ele being basically unable to dodge a precision strike. It's already an instant kill on German howitzers and a particularly common ability to show up in team games. We'd probably wind up in a situation where now IL2 doctrines are in every single game because it's so powerful and counters so many things.

Drop the range to 80 in focus mode or something and leave it otherwise as is. ISU can be indirectly nerfed by some sort of global patch to reduce squad wipes. Fix mine explosion profiles so they don't wipe squads as much in general (both factions).

Then we can see what the balane is like and go from there.

As I've stated it is merely a suggested time, can be changed, though I guess it means that an elefant is counterable now, which is ofc the ultimate objective at hand. This also means defending your elefant/putting it in a good position to fire is priority instead of before where you didn't have to micro and could easily pull it back from harms way.

Range 75 for both - ok.
ISU scatter nerf - ok.
Elephant lock down - not ok as long as we have B4 and sachel charges in the game.
Nerfing Elephant damage can be a solution instead, but with around 10%, not more.

If such changes will be operated, I honestly hope that they won't modify the unit prices. That would be stupid.

Range 75 for both - ok.
ISU scatter nerf - ok.
Elephant lock down - not ok as long as we have B4 and sachel charges in the game.
Nerfing Elephant damage can be a solution instead, but with around 10%, not more.

If such changes will be operated, I honestly hope that they won't modify the unit prices. That would be stupid.

I disagree, due to the fact of the B4 being highly inaccurate 90% of the time, so relying on a B4 to save you is like having a serious roll of the dice at a casino for the jackpot you've been waiting for, which is hardly something I would worry about.
Satchels from penals.....honestly allowing a penal to get that close to your elef without defending it with an mg or at gun if it gets in an m3 or something is ridiculous. Even if 1 penal squad somehow magically got to your undefended elefant(which leaving it undefended is never a good idea, even in this meta) one satchel would probably only effect about 20-25% perfect of it's health at best with RNG on your side, so I still stand by my argument of giving it a lockdown(maybe if it is too long, which i believe it isn't, 5 seconds could be a compromise). Reason I am so hard felt on a lockdown is because having a mobile pak-43 on your side 24/7 is uncounterable by an sort of AT force most of the time, you would need 4 85s with marked target to defeat an unsupported elefant, or 4 ZiS guns all firing immediately at close range while being accurate every time afterwards for another 3-4 barrages each to defeat an elefant unsupported. When an elefant is well-supported pretty much nothing but a huge AT force can stop it.(And that's if you flank it perfectly)

You genuinely don't believe anybody could actually think that without being a fanboy? Plenty of people have made good arguments to that effect even if they don't like either unit in general.

Yes, I do.
I used both Elephant and ISU=152 a lot. Especially with recent meta game when it seems to be a must in any team game and I kind of feel sorry for the Soviet that I can just sit so far behind using Sniper to scout or scopes for sight and shoot every Soviet tank from across the map. And they can't do anything about it. I usually have 2 or 3 vet2 or 3 PzIV and maybe some AT guns at this point to protect it and I will just slowly snipe these tanks with the heaviest Sniper rifle there is. If they try to rush or flank me my support will do the trick. Even mighty ISU-152 can do sheep as I will simply kill it with Elephant due to the second being hard counter to the first.
So yes, based on my experience whomever thinks only ISU is broken and Elephant not is not interested in having a balanced game.

WTF dont nerf Elefant's damage. It can only hit tanks, not EVERYTHING as ISU does. Is like nerfing Sniper damage so he kills a model with 2 shots (useless right?)

WTF dont nerf Elefant's damage. It can only hit tanks, not EVERYTHING as ISU does. Is like nerfing Sniper damage so he kills a model with 2 shots (useless right?)

Panther also could "hit only tanks".

It was a bad excuse and it still was OP and got well deserved nerf.

Why do you believe ele should be an exception here?

And you can start comparing Ele to sniper when soviets will be able to reindorce T34s for a small % of original price.

Panther also could "hit only tanks".

It was a bad excuse and it still was OP and got well deserved nerf.

Why do you believe ele should be an exception here?

And you can start comparing Ele to sniper when soviets will be able to reindorce T34s for a small % of original price.

So well deserved that virtualy nobody uses it anymore.

So well deserved that virtualy nobody uses it anymore.

Because is better to wait for a Tiger or Elephant call in.

Panther also could "hit only tanks".

It was a bad excuse and it still was OP and got well deserved nerf.

Why do you believe ele should be an exception here?

And you can start comparing Ele to sniper when soviets will be able to reindorce T34s for a small % of original price.

But panther has mobility, MG on top of it and a turret. You cant compare panther to an Elefant only because they both hit tanks.
Elef picks soviet armor like sniper picks soviet infantry, it is comparable. If you nerf elefant damage, its like nerfing sniper damage also. They would render useless.
Who would pick nerfed Elef if it cant even have the upper hand on ISU-ELEF combat?

And elephant has almost twice the armor, 50% more health, 100% more range, 100% more damage and 100% more penetration.

If you nerf ele damage it will be still a mobile fortress of impending armor doom, because even AT guns have less then 50% to penetrate its frontal armor and they need quite a few penetrations to actually do something to it.

It would also still have an upper hand over ISU because of armor, TWP and penetration.

Stop excusing elephant, you're extremely delusional if you believe ISU will get nerfs and ele will stay as it is.

Either both will be hit by a nerfbat or none will, because BOTH ruin late game balance.

I will repeat something especially for you, because you're incredibly dense in getting it to your head:

It does NOT matter that ele fights only armor, because if you have armor and opponent can't build it, you WILL win, because MG42 with LMG creep supported by P4/ostwind WILL push infantry only army off the map. You will NOT be surprised by anything because of spotting scopes, reckon run and stuka.

Ele might not kill infantry, but its just as much of IWIN button because it kills the ONLY threat for vet3 LMG grens-armor.

Top players here in this very thread explain to you why ele is batshit OP as well and you're still in denial.

Even official forum german fanboys start to acknowledge the imbalance that ele brings, they don't zealously defend it from nerfs anymore as you and heini do.

Who do you need to tell you that both ISU and ele do NOT belong to the game in the current state? RNG god himsel?

Opponent fields Elefant: Build Zis and infantry.

Opponent builds ISU-152: Build Elefant. Don´t have one? Okay, die.

The ISU-152 is a whole category worse than the Elefant. If you have seen an Elefant beating an AT gun with one shot, report back and we can talk how the Elefant is as bad as the ISU.

Yes-ISU is worse.
No-it doesn't mean ele is fine.

Only time will tell. I hope Relic dont fuck this up

The Elephant is not OP.
The ISU is op.
BUT the elephant is OP vs the ISU. So if the ISU didn't exist the elephant would be not OP (or viewed as op, because he isn't OP).

And the Elephant is a bit usefull against IS2, and because of Company of Callins, the Elephant is often a good choice, because you neeeed him vs the OP ISU anyway.

Only time will tell. I hope Relic dont fuck this up

With the new factions coming out I highly doubt we are going to see a fix for this soon. The overhaul these two units need need a lot of testing and all their testing and balancing manpower is going into making sure the new factions are balanced. Then we will have 4 OP units with 100 range. Not to mention all the initial problems the new factions will bring. Since late game call-ins are the least important thing as far as relic is concerned I would expect a real fix for 3 more patches.