Next patch ETA

The range and health reduction for the Elefant would make it utterly useless. Even now 2 T-34s can take it down as long as one of the them gets behind it. Once you flank an Elefant it is completely helpless and it's hefty cost ensures that Germans won't have many other tanks to support.

On top of that the late game survivability of German infantry, namely PGs here, is so bad that even if he has a PG with schreks...tanks are so good versus infanty now that a T-34/85 can kill a PG while dancing behind the Elefant the whole time.

...Huh, flanked. That's a funny one actually, because just like Soviet infantry vs. the MG42, Soviet tanks are apparently designed to charge at the enemy head-on all at once and overwhelm any unit with swarm tactics. Since the Elefant can only target one vehicle at a time...it's still super vulnerable as-is in the world of T-34/85 swarms.

Seriously. You are not supposed to be able to take on an Elefant head-on in this game and actually go toe-to-toe, which seems like what some people would like to see with the health and range nerfs that are totally unnecessary.

I don't think range reduction or scatter increase will make Elephant any harm. It will still be able to 2 shoot majority of Soviet tanks. The difference is it won't be able to do so across the map sitting untouchable and don't even needing a spotting unit due to scope upgrade.
Of course ISU-152 should be changed accordingly as well.

I don't think range reduction or scatter increase will make Elephant any harm. It will still be able to 2 shoot majority of Soviet tanks. The difference is it won't be able to do so across the map sitting untouchable and don't even needing a spotting unit due to scope upgrade.
Of course ISU-152 should be changed accordingly as well.

I always cringe at the suggestion of more scatter or any type of RNG in general. IMO anything that takes the control away from the player and puts it in the hands of RNG is frustrating at a fundamental level. Having your elefant well positioned at max range, and having it miss more often due to this is counter intuitive. We should not be introducing mechanics that force players to work against the inherent strengths of a unit. If you want to nerf the elefants range, that might be reasonable, but please don't decrease its accuracy at range.

IMO the elefant is in a good spot as a unit, it only becomes game breaking in 2v2 situations where the critical mass of units and the relatively small map size make any sort of maneuvering to try and take it out not worth the risk. If you throw everything at the elefant in a giant push, and fail, then its GG WP. If you sit back and play passive, you are playing to the elefants strengths. This same situation applies to the ISU-152, and has created a really stagnant 2v2 meta of ISU-152 v Elefant EVERY SINGLE GAME. It's extremely boring and I hope something is done about it. However, I think the issue has more to do with issues like 2v2 map size, and armor pushes being extremely risky due to the effectiveness of mines and AT guns, than it has to do with the units themselves.

What is really amusing is that Relic will read this, think a bit, then remove a little bit from ISU's AI power while decreasing its cost, then nerf Elefant into oblivion. Afterwards they will come with a patch to buff Elefant a little because "we felt that Elefant it's underused".
I keep my opinion Relic makes the game balance by looking in these forums instead investing in balance testing. It's logical: It's cheaper to build balance on players' nerves that on their money.

Solution imo: Decrease range on both the elefant and the ISU to like 75. Give the ISU a higher scatter ratio so it has a higher chance of missing gren squads. Reduce the dmg output of an elefant so that it's equivalent to a tiger, but give it an option to lock down(like the Marder in VCoH) where it is able to deal the dmg it has done before, but be forced into place. (Takes lets say 8 seconds for it to move out of place once it's put into place at w/e time you decide you want to move it). This allows for both units to still be effective, but with limitations. Arty, multiple tanks, etc... will be able to counter it effectively if unsupported/unwatched.

Solution imo: Decrease range on both the elefant and the ISU to like 75. Give the ISU a higher scatter ratio so it has a higher chance of missing gren squads. Reduce the dmg output of an elefant so that it's equivalent to a tiger, but give it an option to lock down(like the Marder in VCoH) where it is able to deal the dmg it has done before, but be forced into place. (Takes lets say 8 seconds for it to move out of place once it's put into place at w/e time you decide you want to move it). This allows for both units to still be effective, but with limitations. Arty, multiple tanks, etc... will be able to counter it effectively if unsupported/unwatched.

This would be great solution and exactly similar thoughts as me and my mate were thinking yesterday.

However I doubt that they will make this radical decisions.

There prob wont be another patch until the expansion is released.

Um there was a 70mb update this morning, like 8 hours ago. There is no changelog.

http://abload.de/img/wtffvjf4.png

My replays from yesterday were no longer compatible which tipped me off. Is anyone else seeing this?

Um there was a 70mb update this morning, like 8 hours ago. There is no changelog.

saw that too. No doubt, changelog will be updated....I guess....

Both the ISU-152 and the Elephant are stupid right now.

The ISU needs to stop constantly insta-gibbing squads but other than that I think it is okay. But right now you pretty much just have to stop using infantry until you manage to get rid of the ISU because otherwise you will just lose all of it. That is not fun.

The elephant itself probably doesn't even need much or any nerf. The problem with the elephant is that the main default commander (Jaeger Armor) with the elephant has Spotting Scopes, Recon, and Stuka Bombing Run all in the same doctrine. It is like the doctrine is completely designed to make the Elephant ridiculously broken. You cannot counter it with tanks because spotting scopes allows the elephant to just gib every SU-85, ISU or KV2 on the field easily. You don't even need something to scout for it and that is really really dumb.

Before anyone suggests like Death's Head did that two T-34s can flank and kill an elephant...that is not possible against a good player or team unless they are already in catastrophically bad shape. Yes it would be technically possible, but of course the player with the elephant and his allies are going to have other tanks and paks backing it up. It just isn't going to happen unless they are terrible.

So how do you counter it? Well not with Katyushas. They do pretty much nothing to an elephant. You cannot use howitzers. While the B4 can be deadly to an elephant the first time you use it they will immediately recon and stuka your B4 making it worthless.

That only leaves bombing run, and that will only work if they are not paying attention to their most micro intensive and valuable unit (unlikely) or you manage to engine damage it somehow (less unlikely but still extremely difficult). And only a handful of Soviet commanders have this ability.

The elephant is just way way too difficult to kill in team games and I think that is largely because of the other abilities on the Jaeger Armor doctrine are TOO GOOD in combination with the elephant. At least make the players on the team coordinate to make the elephant that strong.

saw that too. No doubt, changelog will be updated....I guess....

Still no update, but hey, they released news that we can pre-order the new imbalance factions!

Love how just because the ISU or IS2 is more expensive than the tiger it should somehow justify being ridiculously superior to German equivalents. Ok let german player pay 20 fuel more or whatever crap it is and give us equal footing.

SAme goes with german infantry.

Love how just because the ISU or IS2 is more expensive than the tiger it should somehow justify being ridiculously superior to German equivalents. Ok let german player pay 20 fuel more or whatever crap it is and give us equal footing.

SAme goes with german infantry.

I will give you some facts instead of your observations.

1. Tiger > IS-2 - no doubts about it. If you struggle against IS-2 with Tiger then you're doing it wrong.

2. ISU-152 will outclass every German armour 1 on 1 except for Elephant. The reason is ISU-152 is the ultimate Soviet unit. If you want hard counter for it just build Elephant otherwise all you got are soft counters. The other thing is that both ISU-152 and Elephant are too good and majority of players, aside from few fanboys, want both these units to be changed accordingly.

German infantry beats Soviet infantry with exception being Shocks. Shocks are the only armoured infantry unit and they will own every other unit when USED CORRECTLY.
Other then that Grenadiers will beat everything else Soviet got to offer when USED CORRECTLY. Later in the game with all the upgrades like LMG and G43 they are still very viable. Just don't rush tanks with them.

I will give you some facts instead of your observations.

1. Tiger > IS-2 - no doubts about it. If you struggle against IS-2 with Tiger then you're doing it wrong.

Really?
Is this your conclusion about the figures bellow?

Tiger - Armor 300
IS-2 - Armor 340

Tiger - Rear Armor 180
IS-2 - Rear Armor 205

Tiger - hp 1280
IS-2 - hp 960

Tiger - penetration 200
Is-2 - penetration 220

Tiger - cost 640 mp and 230 fuel
Is-2 - cost 640 mp and 230 fuel

Tiger - main gun damage 160
IS-2 - main gun damage 160

Adding to this that the DPS varries by the distance and that is favourable to Tiger, a comparison is very very doubtfull in terms which is the best or cost effective machine between those two.

Try this: get a friend in a custom game. You build an IS2, he builds a Tiger.

If IS2 beats a Tiger in a face to face fight more than once out of 10 times, post a replay.

Numbers don't mean shit if the reality is something else.

If you add what IS and tiger are supposed to fight, you have a clear winner here.

Why are you even try to argue Tiger not being superior to IS-2?
Even blind bias needs to have some limits.

And if you really do believe IS-2 is so awesome, lets switch armor and HP on both and see if you'll still love tiger?

Why are you even try to argue Tiger not being superior to IS-2?
Even blind bias needs to have some limits.

Can't name a post bias if it has proves as for instance FIGURES. Sorry, not argumented, your post here values nothing.

It brings certainly more value then your vacuum stat comparisons.

[...]
Tiger - hp 1280
IS-2 - hp 960
[...]

Yes, really. Surprised?
What about reload times?

I'm not a German fanboy, and indeed I recently won a game as Soviets where both units were used (I didn't) and got a good look at their relative values.

It seems to me that the Elefant:

1. Needs lots of support to stop flanking. It's a combined arms unit. Unless it has MGs and AT around it, it is extremely vulnerable. We hit the ground around it with Katys and I attacked with two vetted T34/85s and killed it fairly easily.

I temper my following comments by acknowledging that the Germans have the Panther, Tiger and AT infantry options that the Russians do not...

2. The ISU OTOH is a different kettle of fish. It has a superb dushka that routinely downs aircraft. It seems faster. It's gun is great at hitting targets of opportunity when it gets other units to get field of vision for it. As others have written, it is also very good at fucking up every unit type it hits.

In short, the ISU is a multi-role vehicle that, although it needs support, isn't a reliant on it as the Elefant.

I find myself in the camp that would be happier with neither of these over-dominant, meta-shaping units on the field. If they have to stay, I'd argue that their respective commanders are made less appealing (I mean the viewing scopes / spotters / Stuka on the Elefant commander is very potent and the ISU gets shocks IIRC).

Just my two cents as someone who plays both factions.