Panther is under-performing for its cost

The below post was posted in the community forum.

I'll just say that for the fuel it takes to get to tier 4 and then actually produce those units, tier 4 is just too weak. But I want to focus on the Panther. Why would you buff soviet AT, nerf Panther hp, increase the fuel cost and nerf blitz all that the same time? Common sense screams "overkill!". And now playing the patch confirms the Panther and tier 4 are just not worth the cost.

Some changes were needed (I think buffing Soviet AT and changing blitz are a step in the right direction), but the Panther was untenable in 1v1 competitive games and now it's untenable in 1v1 and 2v2 games. It will always come out late and against Soviet combined arms (AT guns and several tanks) and it blows up very quickly when facing the same.

It really needs to be looked at. I suggest buffing back the HP and decreasing the fuel cost again.



"German Tier 4 is not viable in against good players any longer.

Before this patch the panzerwerfer and panther were used frequently -- the Brummbar is a waste of mp and fuel as everyone knows.

Now the Panther was beat to deaf the nerf stick. (1) Increased fuel price, (2) decreased HP and (3) buff Soviet AT all around. One or two of these three changes may have been merited, but doing all three!?! It's over the top and makes the Panther under perform for its cost.

Now the Panzerwerfer takes 90 seconds to reload, up from 54 seconds. The Panzerwerfer without vet was already pretty unreliable in hitting targets in the area -- the rockets are so scattered. Now firing every 90 seconds just makes this a wasted investment. Katyusha rockets didn't need a nerf either. Who was complaining about these units before the patch??


Please keep in mind you already nerfed tier 4 by making it more expensive and longer to get to. Now the Panther has been nerfed in three, possibly more, discrete ways and the Panzerwerfer has been hit hard with the nerf stick too.

Like I said above, some changes were needed, but when you simultaneously buff units and nerf their counters what else do you expect other than imba? Please consider rebalancing German Tier 4 to be more in line with its cost."

What did you expect? Classic relic over-nerf, they have been doing it almost every patch. They take the most over-performing units and over-nerf them to where they are no longer competitive, as if they are somehow trying to get revenge on these units despite them being inanimate coding.

My predictions for next patch? ISU-152 and Elefant will be useless hulks, Lend-Lease will never be used again due to Sherman cost increase + CP increase + stats nerf.

Sound about right?

Let's not get overly dramatic Deathhead. The Panther was absolutely overnerfed in this last patch, but the overall changes of the last patch improved the balance a lot. There are tweaks and adjustments to be made, so make your case and convince relic to fix them.

I would say everything except the cost increase on the Panther were warranted. I would also argue that with the fundamental change/nerf to blitz (which was absolutely needed) meant the cost increase (on both the panther and blitz) is unnecessary.

Now that the Panther is

- more fragile (less health and less armor on vet),
- blitz doesn´t work,
- cost is increased,
- and Russian tanks are generally more lethal/ durable

a gun range increase would be cool.

Now that the Panther is

- more fragile (less health and less armor on vet),
- blitz doesn´t work,
- cost is increased,
- and Russian tanks are generally more lethal/ durable

a gun range increase would be cool.

Its almost as if devs wanted you to use panthers range instead of armor currently.

There is plenty of players who still think its indestructible damage sponge.

Well, its now heavily armored medium tank with range and mobility advantage, time to use these two now that armor is no longer as reliable.

it's already got 50 range, which is very high for a turreted vehicle, and it's also very fast.

however it's penetration values on the main gun somehow are 180/170/160 when it should be 260/240/220

it's already got 50 range, which is very high for a turreted vehicle, and it's also very fast.

however it's penetration values on the main gun somehow are 180/170/160 when it should be 260/240/220

I think the fuel cost increase was too much. The HP and Armor changes makes it no longer practically invincible. 160 damage a shot from a Zis with its craptasic reload 960 HPs was a bit much. Its also not the only tank to lose HPs this patch.

I personally think that the T4 tech price in general should come down. T3 for cheaper tanks that are weaker. T4 for stronger tanks that are more expensive is what I would like to see. (with the same relative cost)

I'd take Brummbar to T3 - massively decrease its potency against inf by 50%. This would combat the early build up of combined arms - ATG's + support teams. Leaving the German player more incentive to actually go T4 and mop up armour with Panthers.

I'd also take the Ostwind to T4 in return and seriously buff its AA capabilities so that if the Sov player has an air ability doctrine again, T4 is a decent incentive to play for for the German player.

I would like a slight decrease in price and a reload reduction for the panther.

Wait for the fix on it's penetration. Unless that's in, all date / opinions are rather useless.

the Brummbar is a waste of mp and fuel as everyone knows.

obvious troll

Panther's fuel cost should be set back to 150~160,

Brumbar needs cost reduction.

But The goddamn T-34/85 double call-in should be single call-in FFS.

They tried to balance team game, but totally = deleted T4 from 1v1.

Seriously for this sky-high cost, getting this panther?

the reason why panther is underperforming is because there is a bug.

It's penetration is supposed to be 240, however right know it is only 170.

Yep. The Panther as the developer has stated in the other thread...has not been updated yet.

WAIT FOR THE UPDATE!

it's already got 50 range, which is very high for a turreted vehicle, and it's also very fast.

however it's penetration values on the main gun somehow are 180/170/160 when it should be 260/240/220

Panther is more lethal than before now.
The difference is it's not damage sponge anymore. It's supposed to be used as hit and run unit.
If you can't utilise your Panthers you're doing it wrong.

Three words for the new panther:

- overexpensive
- to fragile
- nerfed into oblivion

But what you should use in over 1v1 games? P4? hm. Stugs? just lol.
So there is your overnerfed tank, expensive like shit, comming when the battlefield is allready filled with 4-5 T34s. Good luck!
2v2 3v3 multiplayer games seem like 80% loss probability for german faction. Verry balanced indeed.

Three words for the new panther:

- overexpensive
- to fragile
- nerfed into oblivion

But what you should use in over 1v1 games? P4? hm. Stugs? just lol.
So there is your overnerfed tank, expensive like shit, comming when the battlefield is allready filled with 4-5 T34s. Good luck!
2v2 3v3 multiplayer games seem like 80% loss probability for german faction. Verry balanced indeed.

Could you upload the replay with 4 / 5 T-34s when you have one Panther out. I seem to remember you making various posts about Soviets having to adapt prior to this patch and yet all I have seen you do this patch is whine how bad apparently Germans are.

Wait for the fix on it's penetration. Unless that's in, all date / opinions are rather useless.

The thread should have ended after this post.

We should wait for the bugfix + i think its a bit too fuel expensive right now.

I would like to see how it performs at 160 fuel.