On the side note. Screw ISU-152 have you seen what Tiger does to infantry right now? 2 shoot 6 men Soviet squads almost every time.
To the guy who lost 2 Grens and 1 PG squad in single shoot - that's what you get for blobing.
ISU-152
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29 Apr 2014, 11:37 AM
#261
Posts: 1439
29 Apr 2014, 11:45 AM
#262
Posts: 710
Well sure, this thread can be nerf request for all of the game's armored units?
Or would it be better to stay in the topic in this thread?
I like the idea that these units wouldn't have such a long spotting by themselves. It would make it more interesting that you would need scout units.
Or would it be better to stay in the topic in this thread?
I like the idea that these units wouldn't have such a long spotting by themselves. It would make it more interesting that you would need scout units.
29 Apr 2014, 12:19 PM
#263
Posts: 978
On the side note. Screw ISU-152 have you seen what Tiger does to infantry right now? 2 shoot 6 men Soviet squads almost every time.At 40 range, not 100 range. Zis, SU-85 (and optional T-34/85, IS-2) can all fire back. In some situations an oorahing conscript might even get off an AT grenade. Try getting those Grenadiers and their Panzerfaust close to the ISU-152.
So, it´s okay for the ISU-152 to decide the game with one shot, but the Tiger isn´t allowed to kill bunched up infantry with two or three shots? At least the Tiger has to come into gun range and the Soviet player has a reaction time to retreat his units, which is about 10 seconds or so for two shots. Facing an ISU-152 you often notice it firing, when your unit is wiped. Also I didn´t see a Tiger one shotting an infantry squad btw.
To the guy who lost 2 Grens and 1 PG squad in single shoot - that's what you get for blobing.
29 Apr 2014, 12:58 PM
#264
Posts: 1637
Ok I agree that the ISU152 is too strong. Is like the armored version of a Ranger blob. A KILL EVERYTHING unit.
But what to do? It is the MOST EXPENSIVE CALL IN. Its claim to fame (Infantry leathality) has been usurped by many units due to armor lethality in general (STUG, TIGER, Brummbar) all these units I listed can kill more infantry squads as fast or faster then that ISU152.
And I think everybody agrees that the Elephant is better at Anti tank. And not to mention last game the Elephant killed half my attacking guards squad with a single shot (so much for it sucking vs infantry this patch).
So we are in a situation in the Meta where EVERY ARMORED VEHICLE just LOLz all over infantrys faces. How do you propose we make the ISU152 worth the cost or excel at something in this meta?
But what to do? It is the MOST EXPENSIVE CALL IN. Its claim to fame (Infantry leathality) has been usurped by many units due to armor lethality in general (STUG, TIGER, Brummbar) all these units I listed can kill more infantry squads as fast or faster then that ISU152.
And I think everybody agrees that the Elephant is better at Anti tank. And not to mention last game the Elephant killed half my attacking guards squad with a single shot (so much for it sucking vs infantry this patch).
So we are in a situation in the Meta where EVERY ARMORED VEHICLE just LOLz all over infantrys faces. How do you propose we make the ISU152 worth the cost or excel at something in this meta?
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
29 Apr 2014, 13:13 PM
#265
Posts: 1162
Fielding and protecting an ISU requires your army and game plan to evolve around it. Similar situation with an Elefant.
Taking out these vehicles requires just as much planning and execution. They are slow and expensive.
Taking out these vehicles requires just as much planning and execution. They are slow and expensive.
29 Apr 2014, 17:52 PM
#266
Posts: 197
Isu 152 should have a switch between HE rounds and High penetration rounds. And a timer for changing it.
It can't be an ANTI ALL unit.
Best suggestion so far, I'd say!
29 Apr 2014, 18:33 PM
#267
Posts: 5
Isu 152 should have a switch between HE rounds and High penetration rounds. And a timer for changing it.The 152mm high-explosive shells were so powerful that many ISU-152 only used high-explosive rounds because they were they powerful enough to take out tanks. Armor piercing rounds for the ISU-152 were unnecessary.
It can't be an ANTI ALL unit.
29 Apr 2014, 18:45 PM
#268
4 
Posts: 117
The 152mm high-explosive shells were so powerful that many ISU-152 only used high-explosive rounds because they were they powerful enough to take out tanks. Armor piercing rounds for the ISU-152 were unnecessary.
Yes and T34s didn't really have little health bars that went down every time an AP round penetrated their armor. And you don't actually capture territory by sitting in a magic circle while a flag goes up. What is your point?
29 Apr 2014, 19:13 PM
#269
Posts: 84
Try getting those Grenadiers and their Panzerfaust close to the ISU-152.
you tried putting them in halftrack and unloading in the rear of ISU ?
even if you will lose halftrack and grenadiers at the cost of damaging ISU engine its worth it, with engine damage its as good as dead
29 Apr 2014, 19:14 PM
#270
Posts: 471
Man, finding it quite frustrating now that every 2v2 we play seems to be ISU vs. Elephant battle. While the rest of the game is multidimensional and multiple strats are viable, if the enemy has Elephant/ISU you have to have Elephant/ISU yourself.
We saw the same thing in the ESL 2v2 cup over the weekend where teams were using ISU/Elephant even on close-quarter, shot-block-filled maps like Kharkov.
I think the role of these units has to be reduced somewhat.
P.S. Oddly, it's not just the units you need but the doctrines themselves. ISU comes with Guards (for button) + bomb drop and Elephant comes with recon + stuka. These doctrines need some rework as well as the units...
We saw the same thing in the ESL 2v2 cup over the weekend where teams were using ISU/Elephant even on close-quarter, shot-block-filled maps like Kharkov.
I think the role of these units has to be reduced somewhat.
P.S. Oddly, it's not just the units you need but the doctrines themselves. ISU comes with Guards (for button) + bomb drop and Elephant comes with recon + stuka. These doctrines need some rework as well as the units...
29 Apr 2014, 19:23 PM
#271
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Yes and T34s didn't really have little health bars that went down every time an AP round penetrated their armor. And you don't actually capture territory by sitting in a magic circle while a flag goes up. What is your point?
And I thought that basing armor effectiveness on their RL counterparts is what german players love and they were always supportive to base things on RL performance *looks at panther threads* what made you change your mind all of sudden?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
29 Apr 2014, 19:33 PM
#272
4 Posts: 117
And I thought that basing armor effectiveness on their RL counterparts is what german players love and they were always supportive to base things on RL performance *looks at panther threads* what made you change your mind all of sudden?
Gee maybe because I'M NOT A "GERMAN" PLAYER, I play both factions and want this game to be balanced.
29 Apr 2014, 19:42 PM
#273
Posts: 978
I would still be keen on seeing real life performances reflecting the units. The ISU-152 already deals big damage, like the real thing. Now it´s time for the reload to also reflect historic values. Even if the reload was doubled to 20 seconds, the clumsy ISU would fire 3x faster than the real thing. So the realism argument really doesn´t help you.
And I thought that basing armor effectiveness on their RL counterparts is what german players love and they were always supportive to base things on RL performance *looks at panther threads* what made you change your mind all of sudden?
But a little reflection would be cool. At least give it a 15-20 second reload to somewhat reflect how it was used.
29 Apr 2014, 19:55 PM
#274
10 Posts: 871
I would still be keen on seeing real life performances reflecting the units. The ISU-152 already deals big damage, like the real thing. Now it´s time for the reload to also reflect historic values. Even if the reload was doubled to 20 seconds, the clumsy ISU would fire 3x faster than the real thing. So the realism argument really doesn´t help you.
But a little reflection would be cool. At least give it a 15-20 second reload to somewhat reflect how it was used.
Would you like to simulate German mechanical failure as well? The quality of German materials and tanks were being reduced as the war went on. Seeing as the multiplayer is set in 1944 ish, should this be reflected as well? The moment you start balancing things based on real life, the moment balance goes out the door.
29 Apr 2014, 19:59 PM
#275
Posts: 978
I said reflecting, not simulating. And reflecting is what´s needed. The Panther for example will always be stronger than a single T-34 in this game. It´s not totally random, it´s based on historic facts. Why not increase the reload on the ISU when it´s overperforming? I even gave a reasonable value of 15-20 secs (real reload about 1 minute) which isn´t simulating shit, it´s just somewhat reflecting a characteristic of the ISU, which was a longer reload.
Would you like to simulate German mechanical failure as well? The quality of German materials and tanks were being reduced as the war went on. Seeing as the multiplayer is set in 1944 ish, should this be reflected as well? The moment you start balancing things based on real life, the moment balance goes out the door.
29 Apr 2014, 20:02 PM
#276
Posts: 1162
Or could add a mechanic similar to marder III or KV2 where it would reload much slower unless 'sited'
Would fit its 'mobile arty' role, and make it much more vulnerable to flanking. Atm it can reverse kite like an old SU85.
But maybe that's too drastic changes. So a reload increase would be easier.
Would fit its 'mobile arty' role, and make it much more vulnerable to flanking. Atm it can reverse kite like an old SU85.
But maybe that's too drastic changes. So a reload increase would be easier.
29 Apr 2014, 20:05 PM
#277
10 Posts: 871
I said reflecting, not simulating. And reflecting is what´s needed. The Panther for example will always be stronger than a single T-34 in this game. It´s not totally random, it´s based on historic facts. Why not increase the reload on the ISU when it´s overperforming? I even gave a reasonable value of 15-20 (real reload about 1 minute) seconds which isn´t simulating shit, it´s just reflecting a longer reload.
Of course the panther is a stronger / better tank. Using that as an argument is fine as balance vs a T-34 but not when it is over performing. Should T-34's be easier to spam because hey its based on historic facts? a 20s reload on the ISU would be too slow and would leave it incredibly vulnerable to even shrecks. A better option would be to reduce its damage slightly or maybe even penetration, so it isn't consistantly damaging tanks. The other option is to increase how far squads spread out, reducing squad wipes from the ISU but also reduce aoe problems for Brumbar, mortars, mines etc and even make it so things like Tigers / IS-2's are killing less infantry per shot.
29 Apr 2014, 20:29 PM
#278
Posts: 381
The other option is to increase how far squads spread out, reducing squad wipes from the ISU but also Brumbar, mortars, mines etc and even make it so things like Tigers / IS-2's are killing less infantry per shot.
The Brumbar? LOL it never 1 shots infantry and neither does the german/soviet nondoc mortars. You are asking for OP Ranger type infantry that just blow everything up. Squad whipes from ISU, 120mm, and mines need to be toned down.
29 Apr 2014, 20:42 PM
#279
Posts: 15
Don't really get all of the whining about the ISU. Its really hard to hold on, to get one on the field!!! Yes its good if you field it but 1 well performed flank and its done. IMO IS2 is a way better tank cheaper and faster to field. I think a lot of thoughts about OPness of this unit is that no one really learned to handle it, in vcoh you didn't had units like this, now you do!
29 Apr 2014, 20:47 PM
#280
10 Posts: 871
The Brumbar? LOL it never 1 shots infantry and neither does the german/soviet nondoc mortars. You are asking for OP Ranger type infantry that just blow everything up. Squad whipes from ISU, 120mm, and mines need to be toned down.
Maybe I have used a poor choice of words (which I have now changed) but I actually made reasonable suggestions. All you have done is suggested ways to nerf soviets. I see from your player card you only play germans 24/7 so have no experience of using those things only being against them. Please take your biased attitude away from this thread
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