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russian armor

ISU-152

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29 Apr 2014, 11:37 AM
#261
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

On the side note. Screw ISU-152 have you seen what Tiger does to infantry right now? 2 shoot 6 men Soviet squads almost every time.

To the guy who lost 2 Grens and 1 PG squad in single shoot - that's what you get for blobing.
29 Apr 2014, 11:45 AM
#262
avatar of Flamee

Posts: 710

Well sure, this thread can be nerf request for all of the game's armored units?

Or would it be better to stay in the topic in this thread?

I like the idea that these units wouldn't have such a long spotting by themselves. It would make it more interesting that you would need scout units.
29 Apr 2014, 12:19 PM
#263
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

On the side note. Screw ISU-152 have you seen what Tiger does to infantry right now? 2 shoot 6 men Soviet squads almost every time.
At 40 range, not 100 range. Zis, SU-85 (and optional T-34/85, IS-2) can all fire back. In some situations an oorahing conscript might even get off an AT grenade. Try getting those Grenadiers and their Panzerfaust close to the ISU-152.


To the guy who lost 2 Grens and 1 PG squad in single shoot - that's what you get for blobing.
So, it´s okay for the ISU-152 to decide the game with one shot, but the Tiger isn´t allowed to kill bunched up infantry with two or three shots? At least the Tiger has to come into gun range and the Soviet player has a reaction time to retreat his units, which is about 10 seconds or so for two shots. Facing an ISU-152 you often notice it firing, when your unit is wiped. Also I didn´t see a Tiger one shotting an infantry squad btw.
29 Apr 2014, 12:58 PM
#264
avatar of JHeartless

Posts: 1637

Ok I agree that the ISU152 is too strong. Is like the armored version of a Ranger blob. A KILL EVERYTHING unit.

But what to do? It is the MOST EXPENSIVE CALL IN. Its claim to fame (Infantry leathality) has been usurped by many units due to armor lethality in general (STUG, TIGER, Brummbar) all these units I listed can kill more infantry squads as fast or faster then that ISU152.

And I think everybody agrees that the Elephant is better at Anti tank. And not to mention last game the Elephant killed half my attacking guards squad with a single shot (so much for it sucking vs infantry this patch).

So we are in a situation in the Meta where EVERY ARMORED VEHICLE just LOLz all over infantrys faces. How do you propose we make the ISU152 worth the cost or excel at something in this meta?
29 Apr 2014, 13:13 PM
#265
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1162

Fielding and protecting an ISU requires your army and game plan to evolve around it. Similar situation with an Elefant.

Taking out these vehicles requires just as much planning and execution. They are slow and expensive.


29 Apr 2014, 17:52 PM
#266
avatar of MoaningMinnie

Posts: 197

Isu 152 should have a switch between HE rounds and High penetration rounds. And a timer for changing it.

It can't be an ANTI ALL unit.


Best suggestion so far, I'd say!
29 Apr 2014, 18:33 PM
#267
avatar of The Yankee Division

Posts: 5

Isu 152 should have a switch between HE rounds and High penetration rounds. And a timer for changing it.

It can't be an ANTI ALL unit.
The 152mm high-explosive shells were so powerful that many ISU-152 only used high-explosive rounds because they were they powerful enough to take out tanks. Armor piercing rounds for the ISU-152 were unnecessary.
29 Apr 2014, 18:45 PM
#268
avatar of the_onion_man
Patrion 14

Posts: 117

The 152mm high-explosive shells were so powerful that many ISU-152 only used high-explosive rounds because they were they powerful enough to take out tanks. Armor piercing rounds for the ISU-152 were unnecessary.


Yes and T34s didn't really have little health bars that went down every time an AP round penetrated their armor. And you don't actually capture territory by sitting in a magic circle while a flag goes up. What is your point?
29 Apr 2014, 19:13 PM
#269
avatar of Chegwin

Posts: 84

Try getting those Grenadiers and their Panzerfaust close to the ISU-152.


you tried putting them in halftrack and unloading in the rear of ISU ?

even if you will lose halftrack and grenadiers at the cost of damaging ISU engine its worth it, with engine damage its as good as dead
Neo
29 Apr 2014, 19:14 PM
#270
avatar of Neo

Posts: 471

Man, finding it quite frustrating now that every 2v2 we play seems to be ISU vs. Elephant battle. While the rest of the game is multidimensional and multiple strats are viable, if the enemy has Elephant/ISU you have to have Elephant/ISU yourself.

We saw the same thing in the ESL 2v2 cup over the weekend where teams were using ISU/Elephant even on close-quarter, shot-block-filled maps like Kharkov.

I think the role of these units has to be reduced somewhat.

P.S. Oddly, it's not just the units you need but the doctrines themselves. ISU comes with Guards (for button) + bomb drop and Elephant comes with recon + stuka. These doctrines need some rework as well as the units...
29 Apr 2014, 19:23 PM
#271
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



Yes and T34s didn't really have little health bars that went down every time an AP round penetrated their armor. And you don't actually capture territory by sitting in a magic circle while a flag goes up. What is your point?


And I thought that basing armor effectiveness on their RL counterparts is what german players love and they were always supportive to base things on RL performance *looks at panther threads* what made you change your mind all of sudden?
29 Apr 2014, 19:33 PM
#272
avatar of the_onion_man
Patrion 14

Posts: 117

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Apr 2014, 19:23 PMKatitof
And I thought that basing armor effectiveness on their RL counterparts is what german players love and they were always supportive to base things on RL performance *looks at panther threads* what made you change your mind all of sudden?


Gee maybe because I'M NOT A "GERMAN" PLAYER, I play both factions and want this game to be balanced.
29 Apr 2014, 19:42 PM
#273
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Apr 2014, 19:23 PMKatitof


And I thought that basing armor effectiveness on their RL counterparts is what german players love and they were always supportive to base things on RL performance *looks at panther threads* what made you change your mind all of sudden?
I would still be keen on seeing real life performances reflecting the units. The ISU-152 already deals big damage, like the real thing. Now it´s time for the reload to also reflect historic values. Even if the reload was doubled to 20 seconds, the clumsy ISU would fire 3x faster than the real thing. So the realism argument really doesn´t help you.

But a little reflection would be cool. At least give it a 15-20 second reload to somewhat reflect how it was used.
29 Apr 2014, 19:55 PM
#274
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

I would still be keen on seeing real life performances reflecting the units. The ISU-152 already deals big damage, like the real thing. Now it´s time for the reload to also reflect historic values. Even if the reload was doubled to 20 seconds, the clumsy ISU would fire 3x faster than the real thing. So the realism argument really doesn´t help you.

But a little reflection would be cool. At least give it a 15-20 second reload to somewhat reflect how it was used.



Would you like to simulate German mechanical failure as well? The quality of German materials and tanks were being reduced as the war went on. Seeing as the multiplayer is set in 1944 ish, should this be reflected as well? The moment you start balancing things based on real life, the moment balance goes out the door.
29 Apr 2014, 19:59 PM
#275
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978




Would you like to simulate German mechanical failure as well? The quality of German materials and tanks were being reduced as the war went on. Seeing as the multiplayer is set in 1944 ish, should this be reflected as well? The moment you start balancing things based on real life, the moment balance goes out the door.
I said reflecting, not simulating. And reflecting is what´s needed. The Panther for example will always be stronger than a single T-34 in this game. It´s not totally random, it´s based on historic facts. Why not increase the reload on the ISU when it´s overperforming? I even gave a reasonable value of 15-20 secs (real reload about 1 minute) which isn´t simulating shit, it´s just somewhat reflecting a characteristic of the ISU, which was a longer reload.
29 Apr 2014, 20:02 PM
#276
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1162

Or could add a mechanic similar to marder III or KV2 where it would reload much slower unless 'sited'

Would fit its 'mobile arty' role, and make it much more vulnerable to flanking. Atm it can reverse kite like an old SU85.

But maybe that's too drastic changes. So a reload increase would be easier.
29 Apr 2014, 20:05 PM
#277
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

I said reflecting, not simulating. And reflecting is what´s needed. The Panther for example will always be stronger than a single T-34 in this game. It´s not totally random, it´s based on historic facts. Why not increase the reload on the ISU when it´s overperforming? I even gave a reasonable value of 15-20 (real reload about 1 minute) seconds which isn´t simulating shit, it´s just reflecting a longer reload.


Of course the panther is a stronger / better tank. Using that as an argument is fine as balance vs a T-34 but not when it is over performing. Should T-34's be easier to spam because hey its based on historic facts? a 20s reload on the ISU would be too slow and would leave it incredibly vulnerable to even shrecks. A better option would be to reduce its damage slightly or maybe even penetration, so it isn't consistantly damaging tanks. The other option is to increase how far squads spread out, reducing squad wipes from the ISU but also reduce aoe problems for Brumbar, mortars, mines etc and even make it so things like Tigers / IS-2's are killing less infantry per shot.
29 Apr 2014, 20:29 PM
#278
avatar of DarthBong420

Posts: 381



The other option is to increase how far squads spread out, reducing squad wipes from the ISU but also Brumbar, mortars, mines etc and even make it so things like Tigers / IS-2's are killing less infantry per shot.

The Brumbar? LOL it never 1 shots infantry and neither does the german/soviet nondoc mortars. You are asking for OP Ranger type infantry that just blow everything up. Squad whipes from ISU, 120mm, and mines need to be toned down.
29 Apr 2014, 20:42 PM
#279
avatar of Sjakie Terreur

Posts: 15

Don't really get all of the whining about the ISU. Its really hard to hold on, to get one on the field!!! Yes its good if you field it but 1 well performed flank and its done. IMO IS2 is a way better tank cheaper and faster to field. I think a lot of thoughts about OPness of this unit is that no one really learned to handle it, in vcoh you didn't had units like this, now you do!
29 Apr 2014, 20:47 PM
#280
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871


The Brumbar? LOL it never 1 shots infantry and neither does the german/soviet nondoc mortars. You are asking for OP Ranger type infantry that just blow everything up. Squad whipes from ISU, 120mm, and mines need to be toned down.


Maybe I have used a poor choice of words (which I have now changed) but I actually made reasonable suggestions. All you have done is suggested ways to nerf soviets. I see from your player card you only play germans 24/7 so have no experience of using those things only being against them. Please take your biased attitude away from this thread :)
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