ISU-152

What about Brumbar then? It can one shoot squads. Itcan one shoot AT guns. It can fight tanks. It comes way earlier as well. Is Brumbar OP?

What is the range on the Brummbär - 40? I didn´t see it this patch, but usually a SU-85 or T-34 can counter it. Now increase the range by 250% and you get the ISU-152. Do you want to tell me you don´t see why the ISU-152 is much more of a problem?

It's only a problem if you don't know how to deal with it.


Edit:
I fought against ISU-152 yesterday. It was 2v2 and we lost it but only because my ally didn't exactly know what he was doing. Surely ISU-152 delivered a punch but at any time I didn't feel like I am unable to deal with that threat, to kill it off. Quite the opposite. If only my team mate had listen and flank with me we would have won it.

ISU-152 and Elephant are only OP on Rzew summer and Pripyat but since both these maps were removed from ranked rotation it doesn't matter any more. As far as rest of the maps go you have plenty routes to flank it and take it out even without any damage.

yeah, i played againts an ISU-152 in 1v1. Long story short i lost, but not because of an isu-152, but because i lost all my units before then.
And anyways, i managed to circlestrafe an isu-152 with 2 stugs.

Panthers hard counter it.

As a German player, flanking is much more viable anyway. The only non-doctrinal soviet tank is the t34, and it loses against every piece of non doctrinal German armor except the Ostwind.
In 2vs2 and up, flanking as Soviet is near impossible, making an Elefant untouchable. That is not true for German armor, they can actually counter.

With the changes to scatter damage, the Tiger and Tiger Ace do a crap load of damage to infantry squads, I don't consider the isu more scary than those. I think it's fine that soviet also have a doctrinal unit that is comparably scary.

We all know flanking is skill, but the ISU152 right now is not really flankable.

Also I will say it one more time because so many people don't understand: You do not defend a unit by saying another is also broken!

Do not tell me because elephant is too good, or Puma is too good, or Brumbar is too good, that ISU 152 is fine. If the unit is broken on any side it needs to be fixed.

@Burts not even sure what circle strafe with a Stug means. Panthers hard counter it if they get within range and get behind. If they cannot get behind the ISU 152 wins. Single mine or an AT gun or a conscript throw balance heavily in 152's favor.

@FathersSon the Tiger still requires multiple shots to kill a unit, and have to do so at ranges that allow both players to know they are there. The ISU 152 is wholly different.

If you can circle strafe an ISU with 2 stugs then you are playing against someone that has no idea how to properly support his units.

The Elefant is completely beside the point of this discussion. I haven't played with, or against, the Elefant enough to comment. Start a thread called "Elefant" if you think the Elefant is a problem. This thread is about the ISU.

As for the Brummbar, there is a world of difference between 40 range and 100 range. 40 range puts you face-to-face with an AT gun; 100 range does not. And I've never seen a Brummbar 1-shot a Zis squad. Video please?

Again, I think it was Shazz who said it best: great AI, great AT, extreme range--pick two. (The Elefant that everyone keeps complaining about in this thread only has two, as does the Tiger).

The problem with flanking the Isu is that you need infantry support to deal with any at guns, guards, and/or at nades that'll get in the way. Its impossible as the Isu will just squad wipe all of your support. Its needs an ai nerfed. Squad wiping infantry with 100 range is not balance.

ISU and Elefant need to reduce main gun range, and the elefant telescpoe+cone sight needs to be looked since 2 years ago.

Soviet fanboys are really funny in this thread.How can you even compare a Brummbär with ISU. wtf.


Things to do as Soviet:
- Take VP
- camp it with ISU, wipe every infantry that comes
- have some other units around

Things to do as Ostheer:
- build tanks
- find route for flanking
- get your Tanks AT naded/mined/buttoned on the way
- Watch tanks die

or:
- get Elephant
- maybe kill ISU
- damn how to kill that Infantry blob that's still around

Omg I just saw the last two page with Katitof pulling the Uwe Boll gambit.

If you can circle strafe an ISU with 2 stugs then you are playing against someone that has no idea how to properly support his units.

The Elefant is completely beside the point of this discussion. I haven't played with, or against, the Elefant enough to comment. Start a thread called "Elefant" if you think the Elefant is a problem. This thread is about the ISU.

As for the Brummbar, there is a world of difference between 40 range and 100 range. 40 range puts you face-to-face with an AT gun; 100 range does not. And I've never seen a Brummbar 1-shot a Zis squad. Video please?

Again, I think it was Shazz who said it best: great AI, great AT, extreme range--pick two. (The Elefant that everyone keeps complaining about in this thread only has two, as does the Tiger).

I'm not saying it's viable to circlestrafe an ISU-152 with stugs. I just said i have done it. If you can get some stugs with vet 1 in close range, then its pretty good.

Keep in mind that ISU-152 costs 720 manpower, so unless it wipes 3 squads it stills hasn't payed for its cost, also 260 fuel.
For the same amount of fuel you can get a panther provided you have t3 up. (It's very unlikely that hes not going to get say a t-34 or an su-85 before he gets an ISU-152).

That said, the squad wipes need to be toned down. Maybe make it less effective over range?

Unit needs to be nerfed. Can't be as good as it is with AI and AT.

Keep in mind that ISU-152 costs 720 manpower, so unless it wipes 3 squads it stills hasn't payed for its cost, also 260 fuel.

Yes but it being in the field acts as a significant deterrent to other squads and vehicles on the map, while the act of destroying even 1 or 2 squads can allow other Soviet units on the field to do their jobs more effectively. Obviously it's hard to calculate any exact metrics, but it doesn't literally have to kill its own manpower and fuel costs to be a fantastic and potentially game-winning unit.

The sheer value of being able to dish out damage from range without getting punished in return cannot be overstated.

You would need around 6 Brummbars to cover the area that a single ISU can cover. Obviously obstacles, movement and the slow rotation of ISU152 render these numbers moot, and I'm not trying to prove any specific point. But 2.5x range entails x6.25 area potentially covered by fire, maneuvers notwithstanding, and we should also think in terms of the amount of terrain being denied by just sitting a single unit at a point.

If I had to balance an ISU152 I would leave all the stats as they are, but I'd just MASSIVELY increase its reload. Like, double it. It would not at all be at odds with its artillery-on-tracks role, and would flavour it a bit differently from the other heavies. It would still be a weaker-hitting B4 on tracks, heavy armour and one sixth the reload time. This does not impact its alpha strike potential, while it significantly decreases the punishment enemy sustains while being in its arc of fire. Besides, people would consider using the "hold fire" button more in that case, because a shot at a passing pio squad would basically translate into 15 seconds of free maneuver time in the ISUs cone of fire for tanks and infantry alike. Then it's less of an area denial weapon and can still pack quite an offensive punch where needed, forcing you to eventually respond or keep losing manpower.

I echo what flyingsmonster said in that it's always been an amazing unit. The increase to AT it has seen does not make it thaaaat much better considering mark target has also been nerfed, which was/is the main way to make it perform vs armour.

Main reason people did not get them is because it's harder macro wise to either wait for 12 cp with no t3/4 or to get a tier but be able to stay in the game and conserve enough fuel. People just found it easier to spam T34s or go for the earlier cheaper heavies.

Again, I think it was Shazz who said it best: great AI, great AT, extreme range--pick two. (The Elefant that everyone keeps complaining about in this thread only has two, as does the Tiger).

Sully/Shazz, close enough.

I echo your sentiment regarding the Elephant. The thing has an obvious weakness in the anti-infantry department, but is more appropriate to discuss in its own thread regardless.

Sully/Shazz, close enough.

I echo your sentiment regarding the Elephant. The thing has an obvious weakness in the anti-infantry department

Yes, except I've yet to find the mythical Soviet AT infantry that can damage the Elephant...

Yes, except I've yet to find the mythical Soviet AT infantry that can damage the Elephant...

AT guns work, but I agree that Soviets could use a more substantial AT infantry unit. Deserves its own thread though.

AT guns work, but I agree that Soviets could use a more substantial AT infantry unit. Deserves its own thread though.

I disagree, it's the army design, same as Americans from vCOH. It is a different topic though. In any case, even a single infantry-supported Zis can easily take down an Elefant.

In any case, even a single infantry-supported Zis can easily take down an Elefant.

this i got to see, got any replays ?