Howitzer Balance

There is something that has been bugging me for a while and that is the cooldown difference between the Soviet and German howitzer. I'm not talking about the B4 since that one has a completely different design.
If you look at this table you can see the big differences:

Faction	Shells	Vet 0 Cooldown	Real Vet 0 cooldown	Vet 2 cooldown	Real Vet 2 cooldown
Soviet	8	78s after last shot	78s	60s	60s
German	12	83s after first shot	22s	62s	0s

That's why I propose to change the cooldown on the german howitzer to start after the last shot has been fired. This would mean the cooldown would be more in line with the Soviet howitzer and be 83 seconds for Vet 0 and 62 for Vet 2

If you look at the overall balance it would make more sense, the German faction has more offmap strikes and many more commanders with recon plane to deal with emplacements and static defenses.
For the rest I think the Howitzer are balanced well, the Soviet is better against vehicles and first strikes while the German has better fire rate and superior area denial.

I was expecting price balance and reduction of it suggestion, but this is also something to take into consideration.

Its not gamebreaking or even noticable, because no one uses howitzers due to the ease of hardcountering them.

They worked fine for brits and amies in CoH1 only because PE and wehr had no scout offmaps and with CoH2 and everpresent scouts and guaranteed kill nukes the howitzers are simply too expensive for what they provide.

Only after that comes the unfair cooldown disparity.

I was expecting price balance and reduction of it suggestion, but this is also something to take into consideration.

Its not gamebreaking or even noticable, because no one uses howitzers due to the ease of hardcountering them.

They worked fine for brits and amies in CoH1 only because PE and wehr had no scout offmaps and with CoH2 and everpresent scouts and guaranteed kill nukes the howitzers are simply too expensive for what they provide.

Only after that comes the unfair cooldown disparity.

Yes you are right that howitzer can be countered very easily, but that is more a problem with the doctrine system which sadly wont change. The biggest culprit is definetly too many recon planes and having stuka and recon in one doc
I have thought about pride reduction but not very long, reducing manpower cost to 450 and replacing 150 with the correct amount of fuel (there is some kind of conversion relic uses) might work too.

The german howitzer being able to launch another barrage instantly at VET 2 is plain unfair.

Period.

As long as howitzers are so easily destroyed its hard to talk about balance. They always go up in smoke.

It's sad. I really like howitzer game play. There is just something so satisfying of keeping one of the arty pieces alive all game. Until there are hard counters that can take out off map abilities they will continue just being a high risk low reward unit.

It's sad. I really like howitzer game play. There is just something so satisfying of keeping one of the arty pieces alive all game. Until there are hard counters that can take out off map abilities they will continue just being a high risk low reward unit.

All static enplacements need a 250% health bonus. They always get accidentally destroyed when the enemy tries to capture them. Currently, they blow in 3 t34 shots, dying more than being decrewed.

Agreed, they do need to survive offmap bombing attacks. It should decrew but shouldn't destroy it completely. Maybe leave it with 5-10% health so players have a way to recrew + repair. That type of investment should require opponents to do a more coordinated attack to counter it rather than simply calling a scout plane + offmap and call it a day.

The cooldown difference is weird.. maybe it was intended as part of "asymmetrical balance"? At least the point when cooldown begins should be the same.

Keep in mind that the Soviet arty hard counters Ost 105 at vet 1 since its shell will always destroy the gun.

Agreed that without some way to survive off map kills both artillery pieces are fairly pointless; the Soviet artillery more so.

This is something I've been wanting to talk about for a while now. The german artillery outperforms the soviet one for a number of reasons.

1. German late game is rather mobile while the Soviets get more static in the late game(Artillery is late game only).

2. German artillery fires more rounds faster increasing the likely hood of hitting something and denying area to the enemy while the soviets give far more time to leave the area between shots and the less rounds can often lead to not hitting anything important(I've often had barrages leave bunkers and other artillery untouched atleast 50% of the time even when well aimed while the german one is almost garinteed to hit something.).

3.German artillery due to its more shells can easily assure a kill when trying to counter arty while the soviet strugles hitting the other. At vet 1 the soviet one does become very good at counter arty but so does the german one. If usually comes down to who fires first. (Counter barrage does far better on the Lefh then any other german unit that has it).

In short, I just don't see how its stronger shells make up for the fact the reload rate is so high, especially since the german artillery firing more shells seems to make up for it plenty.

Can't even talk about Howitzer until they fix all the no brainer one clicks that instantly destroy them. The problem is almost all of the good Commanders that Germans have can cheaply and easily kill the Howitzer with just a simple Click. Soviet has 2 Commanders with the same approach, except they are rather average Commanders that never get to see the light of day so instead all Soviet can do is decrew with an incendiary strike. Soviets have actually be tactical and destroy the Howitzer with units.

Howitzers should get a reduction against off map artilleries if possible, or a health boost that makes them hard to destroy but still easy to decrew. Or perhaps just nerf the god damn "Light Artillery Barrage" so you can't instantly kill a howitzer by calling it in on a Commander that still gets G43's AND a Tiger for example. Railway Artillery destroying a Howitzer? Okay that's fine. But sure as hell not a "Light Artillery Barrage" that costs a very small amount of munitions and comes relatively early on.

Soviet howitzer is so much better and hard hitting. You can easily destroy German buildings in 2-3 salvos. The balance with arty is fine, ppl find things to complain about anyway they can.

1. Off map strikes shouldn't be so effective against howitzers.
2. Soviet howitzer cooldown after last shot should be decreased to 60 seconds. And barrage should be a little bit accurate.

Soviet howitzer is so much better and hard hitting. You can easily destroy German buildings in 2-3 salvos. The balance with arty is fine, ppl find things to complain about anyway they can.

Correct.

I also think soviet howitzer is devastating compared to the german one.

Correct.

I also think soviet howitzer is devastating compared to the german one.

When it hits yes. But constant barraging will ensure much more consistentdamage.

Correct.

I also think soviet howitzer is devastating compared to the german one.

I lol'ed. German Arty has superior Range and Fire Rate. So no problem for it to counter Sovjet arty.

I thought both howitzers had the same range?

At VET3, the german howitzer has longer range because it gets a bonus.

I only have 2 problems with howitzer balance.

1: Jeager Armor. The elephant requires arty to counter, and the same doctrine has recon+bomb.
2: Luftwaffe support. The fuel>ammo ability, in combination with a cheap recon and a bombstrike, make it way too easy to take out howitzers. For only 50 fuel and 40 ammo, you can take out a howitzer.

I lol'ed. German Arty has superior Range and Fire Rate. So no problem for it to counter Sovjet arty.

Vet for vet German arty has a shorter range than the Soviet artillery, this is true in all cases (mortars, mobile arty, stationary arty). The Ost arty has a superior fire rate, and more shots on target but a shorter range. However, on small maps this does not matter.

Having said that I find that more shots on target is less important than damage per hit. Since units that come under arty rapidly reposition it is critical to get as much damage per shot in as possible since only the first two shots really do damage (I find).

I tend to pair up other arty (mortars and trucks) for the same reason.

Correct.

I also think soviet howitzer is devastating compared to the german one.

SSHeini, just be honest with me, how many times have you built and used ML-20?
I bet none.
So why are you still talking?