Next patch predictions

From the official forums:

C0ffeebeanz

IMO the biggest balance issues are:

• G43s are too powerful after this patch, and they're the only weapon in the game that has no drawbacks at all. Conscripts, Penals, and Shocks don't stand a chance at all against multiple G43 squads since they do good damage at all ranges, while Cons, Penals, and Shocks are only optimal in close range.
  
• Grenadiers running up to a Maxim squad, shooting a rifle grenade, and killing off half the squad even if they're spread out.
  
• Conscripts seriously under-performing when compared to flamethrower Penal Battalions and DP-28 Guards.
  
• A properly defended Elefant is invincible.
  
• Panther's vet 2 is ridiculously OP. Transforms it into a heavy tank with the mobility of a light tank, the armor of a heavy tank, and range of a tank hunter.
  
• T-34/76 is only good for ramming after mid game.
  
• KV-1 relies almost 100% on luck in order to destroy a Panzer IV since it has 50/50 chance to penetrate its frontal and frontal/side armor.
  
• SU-76 is useless since we already have ZiS for barrage.
  
• T-70 now has way too many counters by the time it hits the field.
  
• Too much engine damage on both sides. It's a bit too easy to damage expensive tanks' engines, rendering them useless. Tanks die almost every time if their engine is damaged and that's a huge reward for spending only 25 munitions on an AT Grenade or Panzerfaust...
  

pqumsieh

You all will be happy to hear that the majority of issues Coffee brought up have been addressed and are in testing now.

Flyingsmonster

This is going to be somewhat long.

In my honest opinion, CoH2 will never, ever be a complete and balanced game. There are several reasons for this, outstanding of the issues brought up from the recent patch. Of course this can be said for pretty much any RTS game. It is indeed very difficult to balance a game that is complex, has multiple unit types, different strategies, etc. without just copy/pasting each army. It's not impossible to win as soviets. I've won my fair share of matches playing them, even with the new patch. With that said, it is much more difficult, and usually victories require a lot of hard effort, especially those that extend far into the late game as a battle over victory points.

The commander system is the root of balance issues in CoH. This system has created enormous advantages to some commanders, and severe weaknesses to others. I do not believe Relic will ever alter the current commander system, so obviously all balance issues are going to be worked around it. Obvious current examples (that should be addressed) are things like Assault Grenadiers - the only unit which is available at 0CP.

Germans will always have the advantage in the late game. The best soviet units that can actually counter the germans better infantry and tanks are tied up in commander trees (IS-2, T-34/85, ISU-152, Shocks and Guards). If the wrong tree is chosen, for example conscript commander, you will have 0 useful call-in units to counter late game german armor such as panthers. But of course, you're thinking "just build an Su-85, mines, at grenades to counter it!" True, but let's compare the Su-85 and panther for a second. These are both units designated as support units. Tank destroyers. The Su-85 has 0 AI capacity. It is designed to kill tanks with a casemate style hull. It is decent at vet0, but once vetted to 2 stars, it's very good. In comparison, the panther is very fast and mobile. Your only hope of killing it is by getting a mine hit, or engine damage (even that won't slow a blitzkreig panther down). It's one of the fastest vehicles in the game. It can be upgraded at small cost with an mg42 that can easily rip apart opposing infantry, especially if they are not veterans. Yes, it is more expensive. This does not neglect the fact that it is nearly indestructible, especially when granted veteran status. This brings me to my next point.

Veterancy is completely in favor of the German faction. German tanks are more survivable. German infantry are more survivable. Therefore, the German faction can more easily gain veteran status on their vehicles. Think to yourself, how often do you see a 3-star Su-85? How often to you see a 3-star Panther? The answer is it is easy to get a panther to 3-stars. If you have an Su-85 at 3 stars, the enemy has screwed up horribly. Soviet vehicles are designed to be disposable. The germans are not, so apparently the only strategy soviets have is to have more armor than the germans, and if you lose some (even the vetted ones) they are to be replaced by fresh units.

Lastly, I'm going to do a quick comparison of the basic german vs. soviet tiers and units.

First, soviet T3 - the Halftrack, T70 and T34. Compare this to german T3 - Ostwind, StuG III and Panzer IV. Yes, the german vehicles are more expensive, but they each have the advantage of being more survivable, and are much better at their task. The ostwind can rip apart any infantry squad the soviets have.

The T70 is only useful for a very brief time in the game. Once this time has passed, it is completely useless. The ostwind, brummbar and panzer IV are relevant the entire game. The T34 I would also consider useless in late game, especially against vetted units, except for its ram ability. It is completely disposable. When was the last time you saw a vet 2 or 3 T34? Compare that to a Panzer IV.

Next up, T4. Soviets T4 - Su-85, Su-76 and Katyusha. Germans T4 - Brummbar, Panther and Panzerwerfer.

The Su-76 is a useless unit. While it's free barage is useful, it is easily avoided and its AT capacity is garbage, even against light vehicles. The katyusha is a very specific unit, that is often only made if the Soviets are already winning the match. Otherwise, the Su-85 is the only useful vehicle. I'm not saying that it's not used in conjunction with other units, but it will often not get used at all due to call-in units or the need for an su-85 for AT support.

The Brummbar is an excellent, but under-utilized unit. It can wipe infantry squads with ease, and prevent units from capping. The Panther excels at almost everything it does. It is by far the best armor the germans can field in the game due to its multirole capacity. Lastly, the panzerwerfer is not only better than the katyusha at killing infantry, but has a more concentrated barrage.

I'm not even going to bother comparing infantry, since so many of the most useful are tied up in specific commander trees.

Overall, my point is that relic's position that "Soviet units are hard-counters" is obsolete because german units are simply more survivable, and thus easier to vet up and become even more survivable (see the panther's +30% frontal armor which still hasn't been addressed). The price difference turns out to matter not due to this aspect. If german vehicles are in danger of being killed, they can use panzer tactician to get away easily. Soviet armor requires more micro to manage them(Good luck backing up an Su-85 from a charging panther, yet alone an ISU-152), especially su-85s and su-76s and any other casemate style, turret-less TD.

pqumsieh

Read through your post, we think the next update will largely resolve many of your concerns. We don't think veterancy on the whole is an issue, perhaps on one or two units. The Panther at veteran level 2 might be too strong for example, this is something we're keeping our eye on. That said, Soviet mid-late game will be on par with the Germans in the next update. For example, IS-2 and ISU-152 will take on a more significant anti-vehicle role.

My crystal ball tells me this should be good.

If we can take a lesson from this patch infantry balance, then I bet T34s will easily 1v1 P4s and 2 of them will hardcounter panther, no ram used obviously.

My prediction is there will be a lot less people playing that patch than there is playing this one.....

i really hope they don't make soviets op.

get it right relic holy shit

i really hope they don't make soviets op.

get it right relic holy shit

I can understand you.Relic has a tendency to completely overbuffing things since the release of this game.

I predict they could release an empty patch with just fake patch notes and people would still start bitching about the "changes".

I don't agree with everything flyingsmonster said, even though he has some points but the entire topic is about all the advantages the Germans have while not listing any of the Soviet ones. It's a completely bias statement.

I really don't hope that Relic would increase the Soviet AT power on the Soviet heavies. The ISU152, and IS2 are already powerful anti tank weapons and they completely destroy infantry. SU85 have very long range and can take on a Panther on a front to front battle. The Soviets have buttoning ability and AT nades that could potentially stop flanking.

Other than that then yes, the Soviets do need some better AT, but Relic should make some radical changes to do so it. This includes removing the ridiculous rng system that determines whether or not a tank gets it's engine completely destroyed and other nonsense like that.

I don't agree with everything flyingsmonster said, even though he has some points but the entire topic is about all the advantages the Germans have while not listing any of the Soviet ones. It's a completely bias statement.

I really don't hope that Relic would increase the Soviet AT power on the Soviet heavies. The ISU152, and IS2 are already powerful anti tank weapons and they completely destroy infantry. SU85 have very long range and can take on a Panther on a front to front battle. The Soviets have buttoning ability and AT nades that could potentially stop flanking.

Other than that then yes, the Soviets do need some better AT, but Relic should make some radical changes to do so it. This includes removing the ridiculous rng system that determines whether or not a tank gets it's engine completely destroyed and other nonsense like that.

This dog speaks the truth.

I don't agree with everything flyingsmonster said, even though he has some points but the entire topic is about all the advantages the Germans have while not listing any of the Soviet ones. It's a completely bias statement.

I really don't hope that Relic would increase the Soviet AT power on the Soviet heavies. The ISU152, and IS2 are already powerful anti tank weapons and they completely destroy infantry. SU85 have very long range and can take on a Panther on a front to front battle. The Soviets have buttoning ability and AT nades that could potentially stop flanking.

Other than that then yes, the Soviets do need some better AT, but Relic should make some radical changes to do so it. This includes removing the ridiculous rng system that determines whether or not a tank gets it's engine completely destroyed and other nonsense like that.

Sadly you completely misunderstood what FlyingMonster was talking about.

Even tho he was comparing units, that is not what he was talking about.

That entire wall of text has a specific point, the rest is just story that leads to a conclusion.

We like arguing about it on the forums a lot, but lets be real, the balance isn't that far away from being rather tightly tuned. What we see now are outliers in units, abilities, and strategic options - and for the most part, only a handful of them are that far out.

IS-2 and ISU-152 need a change. PQ mentioned they intend to tone down the AI of the tanks in order to buff their AT. Watching either of these tanks repeatedly bounce shots off the front of panthers with little ability to flank sucks for the Soviet player. Losing whole squads to these tanks sucks for the Ostheer. Both are rather significant complaints made often and loudly by players of both factions.

Likewise, it is clear the LMG42 and G43 over perform. I don't think they over perform by too much, but one can easily recognize a killing capacity that is too potent.

what i think could be nice if tanks took 50% more damage when shot in the rear.

Really good to hear Relic sees that Germans are heavily favoured in this patch. What do you think when will the next patch come?

2014

Really good to hear Relic sees that Germans are heavily favoured in this patch. What do you think when will the next patch come?

I'm guessing either this month or next month

I really don't hope that Relic would increase the Soviet AT power on the Soviet heavies. The ISU152, and IS2 are already powerful anti tank weapons and they completely destroy infantry. SU85 have very long range and can take on a Panther on a front to front battle. The Soviets have buttoning ability and AT nades that could potentially stop flanking.

While buffing their AT, AI capabilities will be nerfed.

My prediction: Vehicle profiles atleast affecting thier main guns.

Mostly because of this post by Sturmhaubitze:

Sturmhaubitze:

So I extracted the files and had a look to see what they did to the weapon data.

New Range - Mid
There's a new range called Mid that was added, and it sits between Near and Far. So instead of a single slope between Near and Far, there's now two separate slopes that can have their own values: Near to Mid, and Mid to Far.
So this is how the new weapon profiles can be more finely tuned across certain distances. DPS spreadsheets will need to be updated accordingly.

Penetration Table
Penetration in CoH2 used to be a single number that didn't change over distance. Now it's a table with values for Near, Mid, and Far, similar to CoH1 but now it uses a linear slope between the 3 ranges.
Only a few small arms (like the Grenadier MG42) have a change to penetration over distance (1.2 at Near, 1.1 at Mid, and 1 at Far), and I didn't find any tank or anti-tank guns that had any change (i.e. PaK40 is still 170 at all ranges).

So this probably means tanks will have diffrent penetraion values at diffrent ranges.

Also one of the Relic devs said in thier last interview that the game will becomes more tactical. Tho I hope more tactical deosnt mean every tank will rush into close combat.

Buffing the AT on ISU-152 and IS-2 is the absolute wrong thing to do, they are Commander specific. Soviets need good dependable non-Commander specific AT to deal with the good dependable Tanks that Germans get on the base faction and not on specific Commanders.

What I hope will happen:

Conscripts either become more accurate, deal more damage per shot, or have a cooldown reduction to make them as DPS-y as Grenadiers. Not having access to hard numbers, I can generate none of my own.

Guards are deployed without PTRS rifles equipped and can either upgrade them instantly and for free, or, if the user so chooses, can buy only DPs (and thus, avoid the threat of being nothing more than a slot item piñata).

Grenadiers have their DPS toned back in some fashion, unless the buff I hope is coming for Conscripts makes the latter powerful enough to hit back on equal footing.

The LMG42 is made into more of a CQ upgrade, as it was in vCoH. Upgrading one right now is an instant meat grinder; I have repeatedly seen players leave LMG Grens in light cover, or out in the open, where they eat one or two Conscripts attempting to shoot them from cover at any range, charge up and unleash a Molotov into their faces, or generally do anything whilst being in range.

The T-34 obr 1942/Kliment Voroshilov 1 F-34 76.2mm cannon either gets a 10mm penetration buff (up from the deplorable 80 it has as of now) or deals 160 damage per shot (equal to the Panzer IV; that it has worse penetration AND damage in the face of sizably larger health pools and ridiculous armor counts is...well, ridiculous). For the record, I prefer the latter change (damage per shell boost).

Panther health reduced to 742 from 900 (equal to vCoH values).

Tiger health reduced to 800-900 from 1280. Rear armor reduced from 150 from 250.

Panzergrenadiere cost reduced to 300 Manpower from 340 Manpower. Squad would be produced with Grenadier K98ks, and could upgrade with either dual Panzershrecks (120 Munitions) or four StG 44s (100 MU). Entity armor increased to 1.5 from 1.2.

Grenadier rifle grenades disabled while suppressed (the weapon requires the soldier to be crouched or standing in order to fire accurately and safely).

Molotov Cocktail throwing distance gains a 0.5 modifier (-10 range; ability has 20 range by default) while the squad is suppressed (who here has ever tried to throw something whilst face down in a pile of dirt. How far did that object go?)

PPSh ranged moved more towards that of the MP40 (more viable for mid range combat, it currently requires you to be almost standing atop your target which is no small feat considering the current state of small arms fire).

General damage output of hull and co-axial vehicle weapons equalized; either the DTs need to become more lethal or the MG34s need to lose some of their HUEHUE ability.

Panzer IV KwK 40 L/48 AoE increased to 3 from 2.5.

SU-76M ZiS-3 (AP rounds) damage increased to 120 or 160 from 180 (there, it's useful, we now have a PaK on Kettenkrad treads).

Combat Engineers gain the ability to upgrade themselves with four PPSh submachine guns and body armor (changes animator to that of Shock Troops, increases entity armor to 1.5 from 1) for 100 Munitions (requires Special Rifle Command AND Support Weapon Kompanaya to be constructed).

Pioneer and Combat Engineer veterancy sees their repair rate boost moved to Vet1.

ZiS-3 and PaK 40 penetration increased to 180 or 190 from 170.

Axis vehicle armor slightly reduced, or Axis penetration slightly reduced (messing with Axis penetration matters little if everything they shoot is made of butter, and they bounce 90% of the shots aimed at them).

T-70 45mm cannon penetration increased to 75 from 45 (brought in line with the M42 45mm ATG). Reload time increased to 3s from 2.15s.

KV-1S introduced to Soviet T3 (KV-1 with armor reduced to 215 from 340, and speed increased to 5 from 4.8. Cost remains the same as the doctrinal KV-1. The 1S' was a modification that reduced the frontal armor from 90mm to 75mm, reducing total weight by around 5 tons). Adds a meatier option to the Soviet roster that's not quite as meaty as the standard KV-1, but isn't so cheap as to make the T-34 obr 1942 undesirable.

Axis sniper health increased to 80 (if it already resides at this value, nevermind).

Maxim damage and accuracy increased slightly, and suppression reduced. Less of a suppression tool than a "oh, you're in my arc of fire, you die naow!" weapon. E.g., the .30 cal from vCoH.

DSHk HMG penetration increased to 4.5 from 3.

That's all I can come up with at 12:15 in the morning.

Does my post come off as Soviet-biased with little input for the Germans? Probably. Other than toning down the easiness with which most of their heavier armor and their infantry is used, I think the Ostheer is sitting just about where the CoH2 factions should be sitting. The Soviets, however, need to be brought up to par. The argument that has been raised is that "a good Soviet player will..". Well, most of the population of any given game isn't mind-bogglingly good at said game--faction choice should never be left to skill level. That's like saying the M16A3 in Battlefield 3 was fine and balanced because "a good player would use X to kill the wielder!" (yes, I know it's not a direct comparison--take my drift, please.). Yes, this isn't vCoH. Yes, I'm making a lot of comparisons to vCoH. vCoH is sitting pretty good on its balance and it's a good place to start, rather than bungling around with stat changes until something clicks like we (the CoH2 community/devs/whoever) have been. If you disagree with any of the stats I've put up, please state why, exactly, and offer finite values and, if applicable, plausible alternatives.

If I was to answer directly to the OP, I'd say the Soviets get overbuffed and the Ostheer nerfed into oblivion, because Relic/Sega has never been a company set in small tweaks to statistics.

EDIT: Nerf the health values of the Soviet heavies as well, if they're too high.

EDIT EDIT: The ISU and IS only have 960 health? Wat?

EDIT EDIT EDIT: The Combat Engineers PPSh-thing is a historical-thing-that-also-works-for-gameplay; would represent a Soviet Assault Sapper Battalion (basically, what Shock Troops are in game except they were an engineering unit, and so they had ungodly amounts of AT rifles and flamethrowers at the company level).

I play almost 50/50 and Soviets are much harder to play now in larger games. The grenspam with G43 surge is pretty unstoppable.

Panthers, my biggest bugbear, remain the troll unit of choice.

Soviet AT tactics now rely on a pretty complex matrix of units. I need mines, guards, AT guns and the occasional tank to fend off the tank spam (SU85 remains too susceptible to warp drive on German tanks). OTOH what do the Germans need?

Just their core units. A panther and couple of PzIvs are a credible full spectrum force in a way that a SU85 and a load of T34s are not.

Like I say, I play both factions and for me the balance stick has whacked the previously easy-mode Sovs too far the other way.