HOLY POTATOES !!! patch 3/25

Thanks.

So basically the counter to pioneers is Shocks in a scout car or kiting with 2+ combat units.

I guess some adapting will be required here, mainly adapting by not playing this game or only playing as German until this is fixed...

OH MAH GEHRD! Imagine it's the previous patch. Let me do the magic:

We checked the numbers on Shock Troops after some concern was brought forward and they are working as intended. MG-42 and the 222 used at range handle the Shock Troops extremely well. Try using a flammenwerfer for additional close range damage. If you use Grenadiers, spread your units out and kite the Shock Troops or hinder their advance with riflenades. If you are kiting, try to kite left to right as opposed to backwards, as this will enable you to fire on the move.

Now why didn't we hear that when all the QQ about the shocks being op was going on?

dont know why everyone is going crazy over pios,assault grenadiers. Whenever i play the soviets, pios usually lose to 1 conscript pretty bad. They lose 2-3 men before getting in their optimal range. Same with assault grens. Before they get into close range, my 1 conscript killed 1-2 assault gren before they had to retreat. I dont know why, but last patch for me assault grens were much of a bigger problem since you could blob 3 of them and just force everything away.

Or, you could put your Cons behind yellow cover, and kill 1/3 of the pioneers while they advance, and then continue to win against them in close combat.

And I really don't think a 200 MP unit has to suck balls in Combat just because it can also build basebuildings. A second Pio could be almost a gren.

The soviet 200mp builder unit sucks total balls in combat. I don't see why the german one should be able to take out every unit excluding shock troops.

The combat engineer - pioneer balance was way better pre-patch then it is now. Pre patch, the more expensive combat engineers usually won unless they were ambushed by the pioneers. Both combat engineers and pioneers stood no chance against actual combat units unless equiped with a flamethrower.

Now, post patch, both units are equally expensive, and pios do massive damage. When ambushing any unit that is not a shock trooper squad, the pioneers plainly destroy them cost for cost. Now, have you ever seen a combat engineer squad do the same post patch? Both are 200mp...

The changes are a complete u-turn on many of the previous changes that were made to improve the game. Since this is a drastic change why didn't they make it the beginning and work on it from there? Now again we have to wait for how long before incompetent relic fixes things as silly as pios being a match to cons?

Most likely because the company was in the middle of an overhaul from the top and they had deadlines to meet and wanted to release something stable and playable. Now that the game is in a decent spot, they are continuing to make the game even better from a tactical standpoint, which I think is what we all want (we do, right?). The old conscript spam into armor was Zzzzzzz. Rush up to everything and chuck a mollie. Over, and over. This is a step in the right direction. Pios need to be adjusted for sure, as do grens. Aside from that I think the patch is great.

If you need to do that to kill Pioneers, I can't imagine what his advice is for dealing with Panzer Grenadiers.

2 shock trooper squads in an M5.

dont know why everyone is going crazy over pios,assault grenadiers. Whenever i play the soviets, pios usually lose to 1 conscript pretty bad. They lose 2-3 men before getting in their optimal range. Same with assault grens. Before they get into close range, my 1 conscript killed 1-2 assault gren before they had to retreat. I dont know why, but last patch for me assault grens were much of a bigger problem since you could blob 3 of them and just force everything away.

There are some situations when pios do not have to close-in under fire, or have yellow cover - and in that case they actually can force retreat a single con squad. The thing is that, like a lot of people have pointed out already, a basic builder unit is not supposed to be able to take on mainline infantry (engies vs volks/grens for example).

Besides, now you can use vanilla pios in conjunction with grens as improvised 'assault infantry' quite effectively, especially in the very early game.

However, the biggest problem, i think, lies in how cost-efficient they are right now. Cost-efficiency suggests building more of them, and with that piospam-like strategies might become viable. When you have 5-6 pios on the field, you
- get superior capping power
- can have quantity advantage in most engagements with conscripts/penals
- have a lot of spare manpower, fuel (you don't need the buildings) and free pop cap

I've tried that in 2v2 and teched through t3 to 3 tigers, 2 of which hit the field almost at the same time when i've hit the necessary cps.

Having played some matches with soviets I encountered another problem that comes as a product of the more infantry heavy early and midgame. In order to counter grens and eventual scout car (you need at-guns now) I built cons, penals, 1 sniper, got at-gun and a maxim - so far so good. Then, just before he sent in the p4, he startet spamming strafing run, pinning my whole infantry - again and again. Thus he gained more and more map control, which meant gg for me.
As a conclusion, I think that strafing run has become much more powerful with more infantry on the field.
Anyone else encountering this problem? Solutions?

The soviet 200mp builder unit sucks total balls in combat. I don't see why the german one should be able to take out every unit excluding shock troops.

The combat engineer - pioneer balance was way better pre-patch then it is now. Pre patch, the more expensive combat engineers usually won unless they were ambushed by the pioneers. Both combat engineers and pioneers stood no chance against actual combat units unless equiped with a flamethrower.

Now, post patch, both units are equally expensive, and pios do massive damage. When ambushing any unit that is not a shock trooper squad, the pioneers plainly destroy them cost for cost. Now, have you ever seen a combat engineer squad do the same post patch? Both are 200mp...

Fair point, that CE should also be worth their MP. But I actually don't know how good they are. But because everyone says Conscripts are useless now, and I still think in 1 week this will be viewed diffrently, I also tend to think that its the same with CEs.

Besides that:
My whole point was that only because a unit can build stuff, it shouldn't be totally useless in a fight.

This is getting ridiculous on so many levels. I don't mind having to adapt to a unit in-game as long as I have a wide range of options, not just one option that limits everything I must do and forces me to go with a single doctrine(shocks in scout car). The funny thing is this counter would at best be a soft counter to pioneer spam imo, especially when by the time shocks are unlocked and put in a scout car you can get a 222 out or have several teller mines layed or have a huge blob of pios to counter it's weak armor.
This post lacks any strategic thinking:
http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/coh-2-balance-feedback/33663-new-pioneers-assault-grenadiers?p=34177#post34177

buff soviet engineers!

I think Mosins just need to be buffed. Mosins are more than 50% less effective than K98 units. Soviets have 33% more men. Increase the DPS of Mosins to 20-30% will be negligible and Mosins will still have 70% of the effective DPS as K98s. Then you'll have units that can face each other equally whose skirmishes will determine on better positioning (until LMGs come in...).

That's not even factoring in that MP40 can tear at close range. So Ost have advantage right now not only in far range, but close range as well. But with the current game balance, if a Gren and Pio squads (440) fight with 2 Conscripts squad (480) face toe-to-toe on even fighting ground, bouncing between cover...the Soviets will always inevitably lose to superior close and far range Ost firepower.

Some things complained about here is a symptom of a larger issue on how balancing and QA is done. It is unfortunate that my thread on the main forums has been locked. Although the thread is closed, the idea will remain. Support change.

Or, you could put your Cons behind yellow cover, and kill 1/3 of the pioneers while they advance, and then continue to win against them in close combat.

And I really don't think a 200 MP unit has to suck balls in Combat just because it can also build basebuildings. A second Pio could be almost a gren.

main problem is that combat engineers and pioneers are incomparable in their usefulness

Some things complained about here is a symptom of a larger issue on how balancing and QA is done. It is unfortunate that my thread on the main forums has been locked. Although the thread is closed, the idea will remain. Support change.

yea i read through that thread. you got good points. there is a problem with their method of balancing(only letting the top elites into closed beta). this has been apparent from the very launch of the alpha beta where they only let the same idiots into their "super secret uber doober alpha forums." also dont both posting stuff like that on their official site. noun/dane will close anything that brings up errors with how relic is doing things. Noun is a power hungry little turd angry at the world. just avoid the official forums at all costs.

got a good laugh when noun tried to say they balance tested commanders for 2 months. LMFAO! Tiger Ace and Industry were balance tested for two months? by who? blind and crippled people who cant even play coh?

i will give Peter and the balance team a pat on the back though. they have been repeatedly sabotaged by the commander development team and have been trying to sort through this mess. but why limit it to 42 people when there is a whole community(despite how much we fight) that is very passionate about this game.

I don't think Peter or the developers actually played the patch enough in the closed beta, or the beta testers are not very swift, as they would have seen these problems in playtests.

My suspicion is that the beta testers, like Relic, enjoy very static games that rely on some initial positions with lack of aggressive play, ie., follow-on attacks, cut-offs, etc. If you need to deal with a support weapon, you don't flank, or move, you just bring out a counter (mortar, sniper etc).

When you think about the game from this perspective, which is very low-skill, all these changes make perfect sense, even combat pioneers. You wouldn't risk sending your pio out to attack a squad alone. If you are a noob it's not going to occur to you to send out a gren and pio together to shred up to two conscripts for 40 less manpower.

And of course it never occurred to any of them that the most insane, overpowered thing you can do with Ostheer is make 5 grens, upgrade as many as you can with LMGs, buy a halftrack and own the entire map with your gigantic highly mobile army, which is only vulnerable to arty or armor (if you get that far).

If video of playtests was ever released, I'm sure it would confirm my suspicions.

Yeah Sluzbenik I think you are right.

I remember when they released the Elite Troops commander. They showcasted a game featuring the tiger ace. They were doing pretty well with the germans and were winning when they hit the CPs for the tiger ace, but then started losing. Only when they had already lost did they call in the tiger ace.

I suspect they only used the tiger ace as a last resort, like any low-level player would do. I don't think they took into account that smart players would just call it in before they were losing to get a cheap early win.

I don't think Peter or the developers actually played the patch enough in the closed beta, or the beta testers are not very swift, as they would have seen these problems in playtests.

My suspicion is that the beta testers, like Relic, enjoy very static games that rely on some initial positions with lack of aggressive play, ie., follow-on attacks, cut-offs, etc. If you need to deal with a support weapon, you don't flank, or move, you just bring out a counter (mortar, sniper etc).

When you think about the game from this perspective, which is very low-skill, all these changes make perfect sense, even combat pioneers. You wouldn't risk sending your pio out to attack a squad alone. If you are a noob it's not going to occur to you to send out a gren and pio together to shred up to two conscripts for 40 less manpower.

And of course it never occurred to any of them that the most insane, overpowered thing you can do with Ostheer is make 5 grens, upgrade as many as you can with LMGs, buy a halftrack and own the entire map with your gigantic highly mobile army, which is only vulnerable to arty or armor (if you get that far).

If video of playtests was ever released, I'm sure it would confirm my suspicions.

Believe it or not PQ is actually a really good player. I'd be shocked if he didn't stomp you by a lot in a 1v1 =/

Finally, the cover system is working, no longer have this pectoris steel, ie still has, but decreased slightly ...

Mp40 is no OP yet...

Believe it or not PQ is actually a really good player. I'd be shocked if he didn't stomp you by a lot in a 1v1 =/

While he does play well, I find it simply mind blowing that he says soviets need 2 combat units or combined arms of tier units or even vehicles mixed with most expensive doctrinal AI unit to counter A BUILDER UNIT.