Elefants

uncounterable. shits so op.

Showing an example where the german has poor reaction speed doesn't mean anything. Any capable player will just drive away as soon as the flares drop. Should have buttoned

Thats what im talking about. You have guards, button, mark target, isu152 and nuclear plane. This is how you kill an elefant. Sorry theres not a bigger thing than elef to counter him. You will have to use combined arms and that is the perfect doctrine to counter it. Is NOT uncounterable...

Ha ha ha

dude, i want a weapon THAT WORKS. if you read correctly, i said it was uncounterable, NOT that it was too good at what it does. i listed down everything that might have a chance and it boils down to AT guns. even so with its massive hp and armour, nothing is effective.

The problem is once again that sov have no AT infantry aside from guards with peashooters ... Its sad that someone actually suggested picking up shrecis with shocks in order to be able to counter it. And what's even more sad. That's how I win most late game fights! I have to actually rely on picking up shrecks in order to be able to take on German armor. Does no one at relic see this as a glaring issue? Or do the pro-german rose colored glasses filter that out?

uncounterable. shits so op.

whats next, show me a video of a tiger ace sunk by satchel charges and penals are OP, bring back the old tiger ace!

The problem is once again that sov have no AT infantry aside from guards with peashooters ... Its sad that someone actually suggested picking up shrecis with shocks in order to be able to counter it. And what's even more sad. That's how I win most late game fights! I have to actually rely on picking up shrecks in order to be able to take on German armor. Does no one at relic see this as a glaring issue? Or do the pro-german rose colored glasses filter that out?

sad but true. still its difficult to implement infantry AT into soviet non doctrinal infantry.

krono, countering isu152 as germans is simpler. panthers are turreted and mobile enough to flank and destroy isu152. also they have a pretty good gun with max penetration that can take it out and good armour for survivability. yet there is no soviet equivalent for tanks like that. lastly, isu152 has half the armour and 320hp less than the elefant.

closest i can think of is the t34/85, which is 1stly doctrinal and predicting an elefant is quite impossible for the average mind. that aside, t34/85 is also armed with a decent gun, good enough for a panzer4 but relatively poor against heavy tanks. not to mention it has a smaller hp pool and paper thin armour. every german AT out there has almost a 100% chance to penetrate and do damage. also no escape mechanism like blitz or in some cases, smoke for the panthers.

this thread has nothing to do with cost or how much a panther cost so it should burn the world and rape its women. if i could pay 540mp and 140fu for a panther-esque non doctrinal soviet M1 abrams, i would totally do it. but sadly, i dont have such an option.

I did not say ISU152 was hard to counter lol, I always get Elefant, no mater if the enemy goes 152 or not.

and for you my good sir.

I did not say ISU152 was hard to counter lol, I always get Elefant, no mater if the enemy goes 152 or not.

right i read that wrong, but whatever the case is, my point still stands. for the german player, theres still a good chance to deal with isu152 without artillery.

this 'nuclear 4 fatmans' from isu152 doctrine will not do anything to panthers unless it got stuck on too many dead soviets it has already killed. but that doesnt happen in game so its all good.

whereas against the elefant, there's nothing i can use to flank with for reasons already explained. so resorting to heavy artillery like whatever the relic developer vid shows does not work for reasons already explained. thats what makes it uncounterable.

and with the videos, im expecting someone to post a penal squad killing an elefant by blowing up the ice it was on with satchels and say that elefants are completely counterable.

But I did not talk about panthers at all, I only spoke about Elefant. You can use its stupid behaviour to shoot infantry to your advantage.
Remember he has 8seconds before realoding next round, so do this:

1-Approach with infantry
2-Make sure elefant stupidly shoots at your infantry believeing he is a 152.
3-Then, approach with isu152 and take it 1 shot(it may penetrate, or it may not, it may fail, or it may not).
4-Repeat these steps.
5-It may work, or it may not

This is what skilled guys do to me and really pisses me of that Elefant doesnt have fucking HOLD FIRE so he cant stop shooting at infantry ffs...

Or simply button it, mark target, nuclear plane, profit.

whats so hard about buttoning with guards then marking and bombing it? or a flank with a t34 for a ram on the back, which pens 100% of the time? or just AT guns since elefants are worthless against infantry?

speaking of being worthless vs infantry, if you can micro it, you can just move 1 inf squad around in front of the elefant. thanks to the fact it cant hold fire, it will slowly rotate and shoot at infantry while you flank around the other side.

and before you say "what about the support!?", what about YOUR support?

edit: damnit krono, whyd you have to beat me to it...

Being on both sides I admit that Elefant is almost unbeatable in the hands of experienced player. You can only kill it when your opponent overextends.
That said Elefant is only good on certain maps.

speaking of being worthless vs infantry, if you can micro it, you can just move 1 inf squad around in front of the elefant. thanks to the fact it cant hold fire, it will slowly rotate and shoot at infantry while you flank around the other side.

and before you say "what about the support!?", what about YOUR support?

AT guns are vulnerable to artillery and i can bet my balls artillery are going to rain death on them. not amazingly, elefants can endure so much hits, AT guns will get destroyed from all that artillery. repeated runs with the elefants is going to bleed and then ultimately a loss, while repairs are free.

i can throw in katyusha fire and watch missiles miss a good bunch of krauts due to scatter and rng and doing nothing to supporting armour, i can charge in with infantry and watch mg42 with the XXL pizza slice arc pin everything down while medium armour comes in and mop up. BUT i cant send in armour because they are already cockblocked by elefants thats fucking why.

because its easy to tag elefants with armour, artillery and mg42 then shit gets fucking real. while soviets are stuck with light artillery and infantry and guess what. that composition already shows how badly the elefants can cockblock soviets army compositions. god forbid if u were heavily invested in armour, pretty much a gg right there.

so now im stucked with subpar peasantry arms to deal with this amazing piece of german stahl.

so german arty will rain death upon AT guns, but your kat will miss due to scatter and rng? hmm

anyways, your katyusha isnt for killing supporting armor... it only has 50 pen. you might as well use a t70 to kill tanks. instead you barrage those mg42s you mentioned. it can also take out a halftrack if youre lucky. that allows you to push forward with infantry

even if you cant force the mg42 to retreat, why would it pin down everything? you shouldnt blob all your infantry right up middle. you need to flank units like the mg42 and elefant... its the same way you should fight a stug with a t34 or an su85 with a p4.

The elephant is slow, number one most important point. If you can get engine damage you can chip away at it all game long. One kat with one engine damaged elephant means it will never be repaired.

You can also attack the other side of the map. In team games migrate to other locations to force him to move the elephant after. Once he has moved swing back. You lose time, but he loses more since he is slower.

Finally, he may have nuclear Stuka, but remember he has to spend munitions on something. You should be bleeding him of mp and munitions. If you weren't his strong late game, AT unit will destroy your, surprise, tanks, and he wins. He picked a doctrine with all late game unlocks basically. And you were not able to deal him enough damage to prevent its deployment.

Elephant is good at its job, it is not OP.

Before you dismiss guards, which are actually very, very good, you can kill and elephant with them. One squad will eventually take one down. Use your forces to force off his units then push in with guards to beat on it as it retreats. You can also buy a ton of snipers, since he is all in on tanks.

In large team games you should have arty, mark target, IS2's, mines, and possibly shocks with shreks. They can be beat. But when used well they force your armor off the field. Much as a SINGLE SU85 does to PIV's when it has support.

Also elephant at half health can be killed by 2 su85's depending on RNG, and at 1/3 or less basically guaranteed kill.

On Pripyat, good luck. Map is stupid and makes elephant look much better than it is.

Meh, its effectiveness really depends on the map. I think the health and damage is fine but the problem is it's rear armor. SU85s can't flank it, they aren't supposed to, however, T34-85s should be able to penetrate its rear armor.

As well infantry aren't the best counter especially if they have an ostwind by it, unless you have 2 squads of guards. It's one of those vehicles that are a bitch to take down, but at the same time is pretty damn rewarding to kill like the king tiger or the orginal tiger ace in vcoh's terror doctrine.

I think really they just need to weaken it's rear armor and it will be fine, some maps it's just too effective but really that's Relic's map design's fault and the not the unit.

while soviets are stuck with light artillery.

Ostheer Standard Artillery:
T2 81mm Mortar
T4 Panzerwerfer

Soviet Standard Artillery:
T1(a) 82mm Mortar
T1(a) ZiS Barrage
T2(b) SU-76 Barrage
T2(b) Katyusha

so german arty will rain death upon AT guns, but your kat will miss due to scatter and rng? hmm

anyways, your katyusha isnt for killing supporting armor... it only has 50 pen. you might as well use a t70 to kill tanks. instead you barrage those mg42s you mentioned. it can also take out a halftrack if youre lucky. that allows you to push forward with infantry

even if you cant force the mg42 to retreat, why would it pin down everything? you shouldnt blob all your infantry right up middle. you need to flank units like the mg42 and elefant... its the same way you should fight a stug with a t34 or an su85 with a p4.

come, wanna debate about how pathetic katyushas are vs panzerwerfers?

obviously, mg42 will be barrage up from the get go, but they are not what is allowing germans to stay on the field. armour is. if my light artillery cannot soften it, nothing will allow me to crack through, spare a is2 ace, but that, is not in game.

sadly, there isnt only 1 mg42, trying to flank a mg42 covered by a bunker mg is almost impossible. bringing up AT guns and exposing them to fire means artillery will come flying and not amazingly, more bleed.

on maps like rzhev winter its even more obnoxious. they can camp 2 vps and win by timer. moving left or right doesnt make much of a difference when forces are so easily relocated and bare minimal movement from the elefant still means its able to stop all armour.

The elephant is slow, number one most important point. If you can get engine damage you can chip away at it all game long. One kat with one engine damaged elephant means it will never be repaired.

You can also attack the other side of the map. In team games migrate to other locations to force him to move the elephant after. Once he has moved swing back. You lose time, but he loses more since he is slower.

Finally, he may have nuclear Stuka, but remember he has to spend munitions on something. You should be bleeding him of mp and munitions. If you weren't his strong late game, AT unit will destroy your, surprise, tanks, and he wins. He picked a doctrine with all late game unlocks basically. And you were not able to deal him enough damage to prevent its deployment.

Elephant is good at its job, it is not OP.

Before you dismiss guards, which are actually very, very good, you can kill and elephant with them. One squad will eventually take one down. Use your forces to force off his units then push in with guards to beat on it as it retreats. You can also buy a ton of snipers, since he is all in on tanks.

In large team games you should have arty, mark target, IS2's, mines, and possibly shocks with shreks. They can be beat. But when used well they force your armor off the field. Much as a SINGLE SU85 does to PIV's when it has support.

Also elephant at half health can be killed by 2 su85's depending on RNG, and at 1/3 or less basically guaranteed kill.

On Pripyat, good luck. Map is stupid and makes elephant look much better than it is.

i REALLY dont want to comment on ptrs against elefants that dont even have 100% penetration on rear hits. before i dismiss them, they are already shit. how long do you think i have before my attacking is being forced back? and i also dont want to comment on a even more rng focused strategy that relies on DROPPED schrecks.

look german armour is great at holding ground if you didnt notice before. ostwind is a monster against infantry, brumbar rapes infantry, p4 is generalist. they are all effective at all ranges against infantry and all it takes are maybe 2 of any tanks to cover 2 vps. put mg42, to cover them and lines will be held good. AT guns will be given hell with artillery and averagely smart players wont expose the tanks to AT fire before they are taken down by artillery. then its mopping up with ostwinds or brummbar. even without support german armour CAN beat soviet infantry with ease.

i may be bleeding him of munitions, he is bleeding me of the more important resource, manpower and a huge amount at that. and having an infantry only army by now, i need my manpower more than bleeding him munitions. while german tanks are so cost effective, no munition usage against infantry and any damage sustained is going to be repaired for free. bleeding him means nothing and a 2nd tank to secure the ground is going to come.

remember elefants still have 100 range. stick him in the middle and it can cover a little less than 2 vp. still my point is i dont care what it does really. i know its weaknesses, i know what its worthless against, but im concerned about that its apparent weaknesses, are also as worthless as it is against them.

so its a staring contest between elefants and infantry, while superior-by-nature german support units mop up and my tanks are relegated to the rear lines with extra caches of vodka that were going to for their infantry comrades who already died.

Ostheer Standard Artillery:
T2 81mm Mortar
T4 Panzerwerfer

Soviet Standard Artillery:
T1(a) 82mm Mortar
T1(a) ZiS Barrage
T2(b) SU-76 Barrage
T2(b) Katyusha

do germans REALLY need heavy artillery against infantry?
do soviets need heavy artillery against armour?
do german have problems with soviet armour once elefants is out?
do you REALLY need to come up with this comparison?
is this to educate me units that i did not know in both faction rooster? if so, i thank you my good man.

are we really going to start a debate on the advantages of panzerwerfer which all its rockets are fired without pause against a katyusha 4x4 barrage?

are we really going to start a debate on the reliability of 81mm sniper mortar vs vet1 wonder 82mm mortar with precision strike?