7CP 2x T34/85 and 9CP 1x T34/85

Then why not 320/115 for single one and discount for double call-ins?
After all this is P4 level tank that will come much later now.

I would probably say because there's no teching cost required for it? Also the fuel cost for those heavy tanks mean that either (A) - the player sacrificed and midgame by saving to call the heavy tank is ASAP or (B) they are not able to call that tank in right away because they spent fuel already on pIVs etc... it's also less than half the MP cost of a tiger so the ost player is still sacrificing a lot of field presence to get that heavy tank out, even if it unlocks only slightly after the 35/85.

The reasoning is quite simple, there is a greater opportunity cost associated to a double call-in given you have to save up 240 fuel. For that reason, the double call-in is provided at a discount. The cost of the single call-in T34-85 better represents what its cost would be if it was integrated into the core tech.

Bottom line, saving up 240 fuel has an associated opportunity cost; therefore, we provide the user a slight discount to compensate for this factor.

This makes perfect sense.

That said, I predict the double T34/85 doctrines becoming somewhat obsolete after this patch, which is fine by me given the new commander but it's something to be aware of.

Moving the double call-in to CP9 is essentially saying that the double T34/85s are equivalent to a German heavy tank call-in (and more expensive than the Tiger), which they really are not. (To understand this better, imagine how popular a German doctrine would be if it offered double P4s at CP9 instead of a Tiger at CP10... )

The reason the double call-in doctrines were popular before this patch is that they offered an excellent medium armour option (something the Soviets lack completely) without having to build any buildings, provided you had dominant map control and/or were prepared to risk using AT guns and guards and/or AT nades for your mid-game AT. Unless you denied the German player fuel for most of the game, this was fairly risky even at CP7.

I understand that your view at Relic is that call-ins should supplement tier-based tank options, which also makes sense. However, that being the case, double T34/85s make very little sense now. If you can't use them as your first tanks, they'll likely arrive when German heavy armour is already on the field (you need to spend fuel on other things to avoid being overrun in the mid-game), at which point they really underperform for their price. Other options (IS2, single T34/85s, spamming T34/76s or SU85s) are far more attractive at this point.

the t34/85 is better than a p4. it doesnt need another cost reduction. also, t34/85 spam without teching was far too common last patch for a reason. there was no incentive to tech when call ins came out so early.

P4 have 3 MGs and can shoot planes.
34/85 have lower scatter.
P4 have more armor and will deflect shots more often.
34/85 have hp to withstand 1 more shot.
P4 have much better vet ability and can acquire awesome doctrinal ability.
34/85 is doctrinal, P4 is not.

Thats pretty equal to me and again, considering 34/85 comes 4-5 mins later due to CP change, I don't really see a reason why it would cost more.

Even 1v1 against P4 can go both ways, depending on RNG purely, unless 34/85 attacks rear.

It wasn't not that much for call-ins being spammable, especially in 34/85 case as it was that soviets could finally use general use med tank that wasn't obliterated by german armor.

People will still skip T3 and go for 34/85 simply because it works.
To have 34/76 same appeal you either need to crush opponent, cutting his fuel for the most time or use soviet industry so you can overcome weakness with quantity.

Not to mention the P4 has a higher ROF, and Blitz...which is far more attractive than RAM.

Neo makes a great argument. At 9CP (along with the long recharge on dispatch), the T34/85 barely has any impact on the field, nor functions a flanker like the T34 was intended. It only serves to be augmented as a SU85 escort(a KV8 does a better job of that) or bait to lure armored units into ATGs.

against any real AT, the extra armor of the p4 does nothing. an extra 160 hp always makes a difference, no matter what. the t34 has HALF the scatter, making it much better vs infantry, as well as 10 more pen. to me, this makes the t34/85 better both offensively and defensively. the t34 gets 2 mgs for free, just like the p4, but the t34s are actually stronger last i checked.

the p4 does have better abilities and the pintle upgrade, ill give you that. to say it can shoot planes is kind of a joke though. it has a 1% chance to take down a plane and it prioritizes ground targets. so unless you buy tanks to sit them in the back lines and do nothing, your tank wont take down planes enough to really be worth considering it in terms of balance.

other people have also made the point, it has no tech cost

EDIT: the difference in RoF is 4%. id rather have my tank actually pen and be able to hit infantry than shoot 4% faster.

It can also ram and disable (percentage) any heavy tank...

You're going to use a crazy expensive t34/85 to ram a tiger and hope that you happen to get lucky and disable it? You're going to suicide a tank that cost essentially the same as a panther? Wow

People keep discussing dbl vs single callin ... The way I understand this the new commander containes the patched version of the t34/85 callin meaning that in the future they will all be single callins? Or am I completely wrong?

completely wrong

completely wrong

Alrighty ... Then I'll side with neo. Dual t34/85 callin commanders usage will probably go waaaaaaay down.

Edit: I think both single and double call ins will be underused. Who is going to call in medium tanks at the same cp as heavy tanks. And for the cost I'll take a kv8 any day to compliment my su85s.

I think the t34/85s served a unique roll in that it actually did allow a soviet player to not build t3 or t4 and just rely on callins (they came in early enough to allow that and were decent enough to last lategame). That roll now is gone in my mind. Just remove the callin and allow an upgun upgrade for the t34/76 to be researched just lime the shermans had in vcoh. Replace callin with something (maybe kv1 or some heavy callin like is2). Problem solved. The unit gets into coh in a usable faction and some more variety is added. Everyone is happy.

Not to mention the P4 has a higher ROF, and Blitz...which is far more attractive than RAM.

Neo makes a great argument. At 9CP (along with the long recharge on dispatch), the T34/85 barely has any impact on the field, nor functions a flanker like the T34 was intended. It only serves to be augmented as a SU85 escort(a KV8 does a better job of that) or bait to lure armored units into ATGs.

I played several games with the one call in at 9 CP and it was fine I just got a couple su76s or 34/76s out to bridge the gap.

You're going to use a crazy expensive t34/85 to ram a tiger and hope that you happen to get lucky and disable it? You're going to suicide a tank that cost essentially the same as a panther? Wow

I know you have a responsibility to live up to your name but let's not get carried away. *hug*

A Panther costs 520MP and 145 fuel, a single T34/85 costs 360MP and 130 fuel. The Panther is also a Tier4 unit, so the first Panther costs VASTLY more than the first T34/85.

Ram is a useful ability on any tank, regardless of the price - when your tank is about to die, you have a chance to disable or even kill the enemy's tank (often a much more expensive one) thus turning the engagement and possibly the whole game in your favour.

Id rather have my tank actually pen and be able to hit infantry than shoot 4% faster.

However, if the T34/85 faces a tank unit too (say you're supported by Infantry as well), I'm pretty sure most people prioritize fighting the tank over infantry with their tank. Even say you have a vetted up T34 vs a vetted P4 in a 1 on 1, the P4 will come out on top in the end if the T34 can't penetrate it's armor.

I know you have a responsibility to live up to your name but let's not get carried away. *hug*

A Panther costs 520MP and 145 fuel, a single T34/85 costs 360MP and 130 fuel. The Panther is also a Tier4 unit, so the first Panther costs VASTLY more than the first T34/85.

Ram is a useful ability on any tank, regardless of the price - when your tank is about to die, you have a chance to disable or even kill the enemy's tank (often a much more expensive one) thus turning the engagement and possibly the whole game in your favour.

I do what I can neo

I agree a death ram is worth it, but I don't think I'd throw a full hp t34/85 into a tiger or panther to try and disable it like I would a more disposable t34/76.

Edit: I look more at fuel than mp costs when comparing tank costs and 13o isn't far off from 145. Yes manpower cost does play into it, but even if you're losing the map control game you'll have manpower to throw at it whereas you may not have fuel. That's part of the reason why I still dislike the new tiger ace since its the only tank callin in coh2 that followed the vcoh model and it doesn't seem balanced.

The tiger easily trumps the t34/85 as all around best tank. Hell a tiger tank was arguably better than even 2 t34/85s. Why would I call in one of these overpriced PoSs now that I'm already being forced to tech into either t3 or t4? Its not good enough AI to protect su85s from infantry and its not good enough AT to keep t34/76s safe from the big kitties especially not at its cost.

If I'm looking for a callin AI tank support for my su85 I may as well go a tree that has a kv8 (seeing as how they come in at the same time now too lolol). If you're going to go this route then just let the tree unlock an upgun option for the t34/76 at 9 cps that only costs munitions so that you don't have to spend a million fuel on a paper tank with a slightly bigger peashooter

I had a big elaborate stats backed post all typed up but figured nobody would read it. I'll just chalk this difference up to game mode and/or skill levels. In 3v3+ yes a tiger is probably overall better. In 2v2 or 1v1 T34/85s are amazing. Now being able to have t34/85 + su85 is going to be very powerful.

P4 have 3 MGs and can shoot planes.
34/85 have lower scatter.
P4 have more armor and will deflect shots more often.
34/85 have hp to withstand 1 more shot.
P4 have much better vet ability and can acquire awesome doctrinal ability.
34/85 is doctrinal, P4 is not.

1) The MGs on the T34-85 deal more damage than the P4 MGs and are free.
2) T34-85s have higher penetration and higher HP than P4 but lower armor.
3) 85s are better against infantry.
4) Being doctrinal is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

T34-85s are therefore MUCH better against Tigers than P4s are against IS-2s since both the 85 and P4 will be penetrated 100% of the time by the IS-2/Tiger.

I look more at fuel than mp costs when comparing tank costs and 13o isn't far off from 145. Yes manpower cost does play into it, but even if you're losing the map control game you'll have manpower to throw at it whereas you may not have fuel. That's part of the reason why I still dislike the new tiger ace since its the only tank callin in coh2 that followed the vcoh model and it doesn't seem balanced.

People keep alluding to it, but lets put some numbers out there:

Assuming that a german player is at tier 2 and wants to get a P4:
Escalate to battle phase 2: 200 mp/35 fuel
Build Tier 3: 160 mp/ 25 fuel
P4: 320 mp/ 115 fuel
total: 680 mp / 175 fuel

Panther:
Escalate to battle phase 2: 200 mp/35 fuel
Escalate to battle phase 3: 200 mp/50 fuel
Build Tier 4: 160 mp / 30 fuel
Panther: 600 mp / 145 fuel
Total: 1160 mp / 260 fuel

T34/85:
no tech
pray that you survive
call in: 360 mp, 130 fuel

So in conclusion: a single p4 costs an additional +320 mp / +45 fuel and a panther is an additional +800mp/+130 fuel. If you wanted to compare 2 T34/85s to 2 P4s, then the P4's would still be an additional +280mp/+30 fuel.

More important than the costs is that this call in lets you go T4, while still having a relatively affordable option of getting T34s to supplement your SU-85s. I havent played enough with this doctrine to make a final call on it yet, but I am liking it so far.

Except that math doesn't take into account the other units it unlocks. You can't just lob the entire cost of teching and building tiers to one unit when it unlocks a slue of other units. After teching and building, the cost of the unit is cheaper than the call ins in the economic long run for multiple units because you'll still be paying for the price markup for the call in unit and not the built unit.

People keep alluding to it, but lets put some numbers out there:

Assuming that a german player is at tier 2 and wants to get a P4:
Escalate to battle phase 2: 200 mp/35 fuel
Build Tier 3: 160 mp/ 25 fuel
P4: 320 mp/ 115 fuel
total: 680 mp / 175 fuel

Panther:
Escalate to battle phase 2: 200 mp/35 fuel
Escalate to battle phase 3: 200 mp/50 fuel
Build Tier 4: 160 mp / 30 fuel
Panther: 600 mp / 145 fuel
Total: 1160 mp / 260 fuel

T34/85:
no tech
pray that you survive
call in: 360 mp, 130 fuel

So in conclusion: a single p4 costs an additional +320 mp / +45 fuel and a panther is an additional +800mp/+130 fuel. If you wanted to compare 2 T34/85s to 2 P4s, then the P4's would still be an additional +280mp/+30 fuel.

More important than the costs is that this call in lets you go T4, while still having a relatively affordable option of getting T34s to supplement your SU-85s. I havent played enough with this doctrine to make a final call on it yet, but I am liking it so far.

This was most certainly the case for the t34/85 at 7 cup. As I said before the tank was in a unique position in that it did not require teching. Now however I think it will require that as I doubt a sov player can hold out to 9cp without any armor so you almost need to compare the tank coat wise only to the German tanks (p4 or panther) not to the tanks + tech. I don't think the t34/85 should be compared to other callins (kv8 is2 kv1) as it acts more like a standard (mainstay) tank. The cost at 7cp should be high as it prevents the tech need but at 9 it should be lower imo (more in line with p4) as you still pay the tech cost.

I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot :/

But again IMO the call in t34/85 should be gotten rid of and the gun upgrade made researchable to everyone like the Sherman was. Or maybe replace the t34/85 callin with the su100 (I think thats what the soviet mother of all tank destroyer's was called). Have it cost something like 25% more than the su85, be on the same platform, same range, but better DMG and pen. I think that would give good synergy with soviet t3 much like the kv8 trees give good synergy with so t4.

i think ram should be removed from the t3485 it seems to go agianst everything the unit is suppose to be.

Will probably need to play a few more games, but got thrown into a 6 player teammatch through automatch (somehow easier than getting 2v2...automatch takes much longer than it used to, early battle server woes) and the T34/85 comes in really late.

Won the game on Steppes, but I had 2 CPs left before I could get the T34 when 2 P4s, 2 Panthers were already roaming the field (they fuel cached immediately). My ATguns and AT grenades were the only saving grace that prevented any capping power potential and kept them concentrated on one area.