The elephant(s) in the room

To prevent more derailing of other threads, I'm making this one where everyone can voice their opinions about non-balance issues in a civil manner. This includes things like simplified commander-systems, the feeling that we are being ignored on the most important issues and DLCs. I repeat: do not bring game-balance into this discussion.

I'm making this thread for Relic and Sega to read and understand.

You may now skip to the Future plans/TL;DR-section if you do not wish to read a wall of text.

Because of the issues I'm writing about in this post, I went ahead and actually cancelled my purchase of Company of Heroes 2 (I have owned it since beta, but managed to get a refund anyway). I regard the current situation as no less than hopeless. However, by doing this, no one can actually come later and say that we didn't try fixing it. We did.

I also want to stress this, Relic can't blame the community for these issues, these problems are purely created by Relic and/or Sega.

Commander-DLCs and pay to win

I want to start by showing you this quote. It is Trialbob on Gamereplays.org.

Ok, I'm going to say this one last time because I'm feeling like a broken record .
There is no pay to win in CoH2

no pay to win in CoH2

No pay to win in CoH2
I have said it, Lynx has said it, Quinn has said it. We can't talk about what those things are specifically; game information is controlled by the marketing department, and marketing has several agreements with several publications both online and off to get 'first dibs' at some information. We aren't trying to deceive you guys, we aren't trying to trick you - we aren't holding back information and rubbing our hands together while twirling our mustaches .

If you don't feel comfortable pre-ordering yet, then don't. All will be revealed well before the game goes live, so you'll still have a chance to find out what everything is and still pre-order for the bonuses.

He claims that there is no pay to win in Company of Heroes 2. I would like to present evidence to the contrary.

http://store.steampowered.com/sale/Company_of_Heroes_2_Commanders/

These are the commander-DLCs. They are exclusively available through purchase, there is absolutely no way to get these in the game. I would argue that this is pay to win. Even if the commanders are not better or more powerful than the stock commanders, they will still provide an edge over other players. This could be by giving you more opportunities to find something which counters the current meta-game or simply fits your playing style.

Therefore, these commanders being available is pay to win. Trialbob is therefore lying.

We want a level playing field - give us one.

Pricing
If one wishes to get the entire game - commanders, faceplates and skins, one must pay a ridiculous amount of money. Heck, let me show you some numbers.

Please note that these are the numbers when there's not a sale.

If you want just multi-player relevant content which affects gameplay, then it costs 86.83€.
This includes getting 19 commanders (4 through a bundle) and the normal edition of the game.

If you want absolutely everything, then my estimate for the total price of Company of Heroes 2 is 150.66€.
This includes buying the DCE, one DLC, one DLC+commander bundle (Case Blue is included in DCE), 6 commanders (rest is included in the DCE), 4 faceplates and 21 skins (25 included in DCE).

I'm all for skins and faceplates, but the cost is a bit too steep and there's also other DLC-content which shouldn't be DLC (commanders). Noun (I think) has also said that he can't guarantee that there won't be more DLCs of the kind that we dislike.

Hidden DLCs
But it doesn't stop there, the DLCs are actually hidden away!

Here's the DLC-page: http://store.steampowered.com/dlc/231430/

Here's a nice link on the Steam-forums showing where to get the rest: http://steamcommunity.com/app/231430/discussions/0/666827315703095481/

This is hiding away the price tag and should be considered deceitful.

As a purchaser, you do not know that when you get the base game you're missing at least 50% of the commanders. You do not know that the entire game may cost you 2-4 times more than what you are paying right now. This is just wrong.

I have already contacted Valve about this and I hope something is done. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the at some point all the DLCs were listed in the Steam Store page for the game.

Commanders, blizzards and unused potential
Please note: this section does not touch upon the actual balance of the game, personal opinions will follow.

While I appreciate the little things in Company of Heroes 2 - such as truesight, there are problems within the core of the gameplay.

What made Company of Heroes 1 unique and fun was (amongst things) the interesting game-depth provided by the commander-trees and teching. You were given choices. This is really important.

For instance: choosing what kind of doctrine (, support, company or tactics) you wanted gave you a lot of choices. You had to choose when to choose a doctrine, you had to choose which doctrine. After choosing a doctrine you had to choose which tree to pursue first or if you should wait and have command points ready to be used as a response.

In Company of Heroes 2, it feels like the bits where you should've had a choice are crippled. You are given two choices in regards to generals. You choose when to choose and which one. After that, your commander-perks unlock automatically in a linear fashion. This is in my opinion the definition of lame.

Snowstorms and cold weather gives you no choice. If your troops are freezing, they die - therefore, you just retreat them. Instead of troops freezing to death, what if they didn't and instead got reduced combat potential or other effects? What if they simply took less damage to kill? It would give you more choices and make the game more interesting.

I don't think I can be wrong by saying that the community wants more choices. The more choices you have, the greater the chances are that the game will break away from cookie-cutter tactics (that is, having the same stale match-ups over and over again). There will be more variation per game and it'll keep the metagame interesting.

Future plans/TL;DR
We are in a pretty bad situation.

The developer refuses to listen to us when it comes to the important things and the game is failing on several fronts - especially things like eSports, having a competitive community or being a game which is appealing to pick up and play.

Therefore, I want the following to happen in this thread:

• I want people to post their frustrations in a civil manner. I want you to describe as calmly as possible what you think the current problem with Company of Heroes 2 is. Perhaps Relic and Sega will listen. Please note that I did not swear a single time in this post and so can you while replying.
  
• I want suggestions regarding what we as a community should do. Should everyone go back to the now competitive-friendly Company of Heroes 1? Start a petition? Vote with ours and other people's wallets by attempting to get a refund and advising people to stay away from the game?
  

It seriously isn't fun to see my favorite RTS of all time fail this hard and I wish we could change the current course Relic and Sega have chosen for the game.

Because of the issues I'm writing about in this post, I went ahead and actually cancelled my purchase of Company of Heroes 2. I regard the current situation as no less than hopeless.

So how exactly did you get to a conclusion that current situation is hopeless when you dont own the game? you played at free weekend? i just want to know where did you get all your knowledge...
thank you for your response

also this

The Game is....$20 the last time I checked on steam (a few days ago). It's actually on sale.

So you wrote a novel to complain about a game you've barely played?

So how exactly did you get to a conclusion that current situation is hopeless when you dont own the game? you played at free weekend? i just want to know where did you get all your knowledge...
thank you for your response

also this

The Game is....$20 the last time I checked on steam (a few days ago). It's actually on sale.

So you wrote a novel to complain about a game you'v`e barely played?

I actually pre-oredered the game (don't believe me? Go check my TF2-items ).

I managed to get a refund by submitting a rather large support ticket pointing out these issues (not the gameplay ones) and the fact that they arose over time.

I have also sunk well over 1000 hours into Company of Heroes 1 across all versions.

Edit: Please don't make me submit a screenshot of my original purchase as proof.

Edit 2: so.. when it is on sale, it changes to 66€/150€ for respectively all MP-content and all the content.

So you have not played it, you are just basing off assumptions and what you interpret the games state to be.

So you have not played it, you are just basing off assumptions and what you interpret the games state to be.

Please tell me what you're basing this assumption on.

TZer0 please, show me a single commander that we 100% know will never be changed/rebalanced that is a DLC commander and show me another one that is DLC and is 100% needed to counter the first one or you will always loose otherwise.

If you can't, then it is just variety.
If you can however, that is pay 2 win.

This is my little challenge for you.

Also, please, pretty, pretty please, explain to me in a reasonable way why do you need 100$ worth DLCs with skins and faceplates or you will not win again.

TZer0 please, show me a single commander that we 100% know will never be changed/rebalanced that is a DLC commander and show me another one that is DLC and is 100% needed to counter the first one or you will always loose otherwise.

If you can't, then it is just variety.
If you can however, that is pay 2 win.

This is my little challenge for you.


Lets put aside fact, that making a post like this while not playing the game for a long time is absolutely nothing more then attention whoring.

I don't need to do that.

All that is needed is that one commander benefits one player in such a way that they get an advantage by having said commander instead of other commanders. Even if 99% of all players suck at playing this commander and get worse results, it still stands.

Edit: access to variety is in itself a benefit.

Edit 2: you truly can't claim that you find this DLC-situation to be a-okay?

Also, please, pretty, pretty please, explain to me in a reasonable way why do you need 100$ worth DLCs with skins and faceplates or you will not win again.

I never said that.

I claimed the following:

• The price for the cosmetic DLCs is a bit too steep.
  
• They've hidden the DLCs from the store which is really, really bad.
  
• The commander-DLCs should not exist.
  

Edit: besides, it is closer to about 74€ of cosmetics and 30€ worth of commanders, something which you do not know until after you've purchased the game.

The DLC situation was NOT okay, that is why Relic has not released any new ones They were not well received. So the focus has shifted away from DLC commanders.

The DLC situation was NOT okay, that is why Relic has not released any new ones They were not well received. So the focus has shifted away from DLC commanders.

Doesn't change the fact that they are still there and being sold.

It would have been interesting to se how much Relic has earned by selling DLCs, compared to how much they have lost in sales of the game because of the bad PR the DLCs have gotten them. I wouldnt be surprised if the DLC commanders cost them more then they earned in the end.

Indeed Rogers. We can say with certainty that Relic has listened to all our grievances and complaints.
I understand Tzer0 tough. I had preordered as well and was baffled by the amount of DLC. I was highly disapointed but instead of posting complaints (I maybe did post a few..) I offered my help and started working on things in a way I knew I could. Relic's not there yet, not by a long way but they are getting there because they start to understand it

It would have been interesting to se how much Relic has earned by selling DLCs, compared to how much they have lost in sales of the game because of the bad PR the DLCs have gotten them. I wouldnt be surprised if the DLC commanders cost them more then they earned in the end.

Excellent point.

It at least costs them a bit of the competitive community, which they seem to want to care about, but can't quite get themselves to do it all the way.

Edit:

Indeed Rogers. We can say with certainty that Relic has listened to all our grievances and complaints.
I understand Tzer0 tough. I had preordered as well and was baffled by the amount of DLC. I was highly disapointed but instead of posting complaints (I maybe did post a few..) I offered my help and started working on things in a way I knew I could. Relic's not there yet, not by a long way but they are getting there because they start to understand it

While I won't dispute that they've listened, they haven't acted upon these concerns. Quick edit right here: by this I mean the concerns listed in the original post.

The issue with this is the fact that people have been airing the concerns long enough about this and nothing has been done.

It has stopped for a while now (last commander-DLC came out about 4 months ago I think), but we can't really say for certain if it is a permanent stop, just a break from releasing commanders or if they're going to do a full 180 degree turn and go the other way which is the way to start fixing the game.

Edit 2:
I'll consider re-purchasing the game if Relic and Sega promises no more commander-DLCs, removes the existing ones and gives something else in place and some changes to the core gameplay (commanders amongst things).

I recently played the VCOH trilogy after a long time of not playing it and overall, the original COH is better designed than COH2 even though there are some things that COH2 has that it doesn't. VCOH is overall more fun than COH2. There is more tactical depth and challenge.

If they want COH2 to be a 5/5 game (currently, it's 4/5 IMO), they really need to redesign the basics again.

I find that blaming DLC commanders for losing a game is mostly a copout. Pre-nerf Elite troops and Soviet industry I can understand, but the other DLCs have not been OP.

I don't need to do that.

All that is needed is that one commander benefits one player in such a way that they get an advantage by having said commander instead of other commanders. Even if 99% of all players suck at playing this commander and get worse results, it still stands.

Edit: access to variety is in itself a benefit.

Edit 2: you truly can't claim that you find this DLC-situation to be a-okay?

Then can we agree that variety doesn't equal strength? Or do I need to point out that you can use only one out of 3 commanders in the game and what you basically said applies to every single commander, including the stock ones and especially to the ones which require level to use?

You can't fully use your variety if you can't take more then 3 commanders, the final variety will always be exactly the same as your opponents. One out of three.

What new commanders do however is increasing the possible BOs and strats, expanding on meta, which I find good for the game as it keep it fresh and ever evolving.
We can talk about TA and elite troops, but that would only strengthen my argument as ET and TA are being brought in line with other commanders.

Then, if you take a look you'll notice that new commanders bring usually one specific strat/bo connected to this commander. They are pretty much one trick ponies, while most stock commanders are jacks of all trades and possibly the best doctrines in game are the stock ones everyone gets.

I'm not claiming the DLC thing is good or wrong, but I won't go apeshit, trying to convince others that earth is flat by saying "if we make enough rumble, the DLC will disappear", because they won't. This is how games and their expanding model evolved, you may like it, you may hate it, but you won't make it go away, unless some new, better for the companies method will eventually evolve out of them, then people will look back at DLCs with same pink glasses they look back now at expansions.

All you can do if you don't like DLCs is not buying them. It won't put you at any disadvantage, you will have few strats less and few colors less, but you will still be competitive with what you get on basic package.

I've got myself one skin and some commanders when they were on sale, costs of my game probably are about 60 euro and I have probably more then I will need right now, but since I like variety, I will get some new commanders(because I don't need nor want all of them). I've got my money worth of fun and will be getting it again.

Look back at oh so praised vCoH and its last expansion.
If it was separate DLC, one for additional vehicles, one for additional SP missions and one for additional mp game modes, would you get all of them? I know I wouldn't.

This is kind of freedom DLC allow over expansions. You pay for what you need and use and only for that. Again, I'm not defending DLCs here, just saying it is more player friendly model, unless you are a content whore who absolutely need everything for the sake of having everything.

Well, that ended up a bit longer then I expected it to be.

TL;DR:
-more commanders=fresh and healthier meta
-new commanders=/=stronger commanders, only different strats that can still be countered by vanila stuff
-I'm not defending DLCs, I'm just not deluding myself by thinking that if I bitch long enough, I will somehow make them disappear, this is what expansions evolved into, can't do nothing about it except not buying it
-I'm getting myself some DLCs because I'm willing to support company that provides me hours of fun and I like variety the DLC bring to the game.
-I don't need to buy content I won't even use, while I would be forced to pay for it on expansion

edit: regarding the hidden in store DLCs, they are not hidden as far as I know, its steam fuck up that was never corrected by them, they disappeared after case blue, shop was working fine before

Then can we agree that variety doesn't equal strength? Or do I need to point out that you can use only one out of 3 commanders in the game and what you basically said applies to every single commander, including the stock ones and especially to the ones which require level to use?

You can't fully use your variety if you can't take more then 3 commanders, the final variety will always be exactly the same as your opponents. One out of three.

What new commanders do however is increasing the possible BOs and strats, expanding on meta, which I find good for the game as it keep it fresh and ever evolving.
We can talk about TA and elite troops, but that would only strengthen my argument as ET and TA are being brought in line with other commanders.

Then, if you take a look you'll notice that new commanders bring usually one specific strat/bo connected to this commander. They are pretty much one trick ponies, while most stock commanders are jacks of all trades and possibly the best doctrines in game are the stock ones everyone gets.

I'm not claiming the DLC thing is good or wrong, but I won't go apeshit, trying to convince others that earth is flat by saying "if we make enough rumble, the DLC will disappear", because they won't. This is how games and their expanding model evolved, you may like it, you may hate it, but you won't make it go away, unless some new, better for the companies method will eventually evolve out of them, then people will look back at DLCs with same pink glasses they look back now at expansions.

All you can do if you don't like DLCs is not buying them. It won't put you at any disadvantage, you will have few strats less and few colors less, but you will still be competitive with what you get on basic package.

I've got myself one skin and some commanders when they were on sale, costs of my game probably are about 60 euro and I have probably more then I will need right now, but since I like variety, I will get some new commanders(because I don't need nor want all of them). I've got my money worth of fun and will be getting it again.

Look back at oh so praised vCoH and its last expansion.
If it was separate DLC, one for additional vehicles, one for additional SP missions and one for additional mp game modes, would you get all of them? I know I wouldn't.

This is kind of freedom DLC allow over expansions. You pay for what you need and use and only for that. Again, I'm not defending DLCs here, just saying it is more player friendly model, unless you are a content whore who absolutely need everything for the sake of having everything.

Well, that ended up a bit longer then I expected it to be.

TL;DR:
-more commanders=fresh and healthier meta
-new commanders=/=stronger commanders, only different strats that can still be countered by vanila stuff
-I'm not defending DLCs, I'm just not deluding myself by thinking that if I bitch long enough, I will somehow make them disappear, this is what expansions evolved into, can't do nothing about it except not buying it
-I'm getting myself some DLCs because I'm willing to support company that provides me hours of fun and I like variety the DLC bring to the game.
-I don't need to buy content I won't even use, while I would be forced to pay for it on expansion

I would still say that variety does equal strength even though he commanders themselves are balanced - simply because the players playing them have different strengths which fit the different commanders to a different degree. Therefore, your underpowered commander may beat my overpowered one because you are good at playing said commander (while in a mirror match-up with the overpowered commander, you would lose against me).

I am well aware that you are able to only bring 3 commanders to a game, but having the possibility of choosing something different is an advantage because of what I just wrote above.

For me, if I wanted to get everything which affects multiplayer, the game would've costed me around 100-110€ because I got the DCE on pre-order. I'm also the kind of person who gets a bit competitive about games like these and knowing that my opponent didn't have the exact same opportunities like me makes my victories a lot less sweet.

Edit: last sentence is a not a double-edged, but triple-edged sword: beating someone else who has more opportunities than me is also sweeter, but losing to someone because of a greater magnitude of opportunities is really sour.

Things I like about CoH2:
- Graphics
- Snow, mud and blizzards (Yeah, I'm one of the few that likes blizzards)
- Molotovs
- Point capping system
- Has Russians


Things I dislike:
- P2W/DLC Commanders
- AT nades/Panzerfaust mechanics
- Ram
- Tech too fast
- Final boss tanks (Tiger Ace, ISU, Elephant, IS2...)
- Commander system (Doctrines were 500% more fun)

As you can see, the things I like are all cosmetic or of low impact in the game, meanwhile I dislike a lot of core mechanics of the game.
So, even as I tried to enjoy the game and I've played nearly 300 hours, I feel that the game is really dull and repetitive. Always a race to bring out the biggest tank.

I can't enjoy this game. Some of the things in my "Don't like" list should be changed to make me play it again.

you have 34 hours played, which is all presumably from like 8 months ago. im not sure youre really qualified to talk about the game and what is or is not pay to win.

you have 34 hours played, which is all presumably from like 8 months ago. im not sure youre really qualified to talk about the game and what is or is not pay to win.

I would say that I presented my case for commander-DLCs being pay to win quite well, you fail to attack any of this. This is kind of a reverse appeal to authority. You are attacking me for not being qualified to judge this, not the argument itself. Therefore, got any actual arguments to counter this? Katitof at least presented some arguments (with which I disagree), you are doing nothing of this sort.

I could make pass exact same judgement on another game without even playing it, provided that I know that it has DLCs which are similar in nature and that these are only available through purchase (heck, it is still pay to win if they are available through playing the game in addition to purchase).

Edit: however, if you were to ask me about the current state of the game, balance-wise, I would simply say that there are other people better suited for answering that question. However, we are talking about how Relic are treating their customers by releasing these kinds of DLCs.