It feels like many of my teamgames ostheer goes t4 for panthers and support them with PG spam. I do it as well. And if you go in to late game as soviet, how do you counter the mass panther/pgs? If you dont get the first panther when it shows it face, they start to get pesky to deal with.
In a 1v1 I guess t3 is still viable. And the odd ostwind in a 2v2. But frankly I see more panthers than p4s when playing soviet in 2v2s. It made me wonder. Is this ostheer t4 an issue or a non issue? T3 seems pretty neglected. Me, I find myself struggeling against this pg panther combo when it rolls out, even if its an expensive one to field. Any ideas or thoughts on this matter? Or any advice how to beat it?
Who uses ostheer t3
11 Feb 2014, 13:13 PM
#1
4 
Posts: 813 | Subs: 1
11 Feb 2014, 13:19 PM
#2
Posts: 249
I'd rather turn the question around and ask you how are you countering fast tier3, possibly with industry when both of you skip tier3. PaKs just don't cut it really and T70s eat your panzer grenadiers alive. Eventually the amount of light and medium tanks reaches critical mass and you'll get overrun while you are struggling to hold any fuel.
This is the problem I'm currently having as Ostheer 2on2.
This is the problem I'm currently having as Ostheer 2on2.
11 Feb 2014, 13:20 PM
#3
15 
Posts: 786
I think it's a consequence of the fact that 90% of sovs go T3 nowadays.
Panthers make T34 pretty much useless unless you wanna play the ram lottery and support with ZiSs
Panthers make T34 pretty much useless unless you wanna play the ram lottery and support with ZiSs
11 Feb 2014, 13:25 PM
#4
4 
Posts: 951
I usually go T3 when I panic (as Germans).
11 Feb 2014, 14:58 PM
#5
Posts: 1701
Part of my strategy is going to T3 to have medium tanks to support my later Elefant, so it prevents crazy rushes against the elef.
Blaue Division - The best corp
BPX - Black Phoenix, Clan leader.
BPX - Black Phoenix, Clan leader.
11 Feb 2014, 15:05 PM
#6
Posts: 680
In 2v2 I always go tier 1,2,3,4. Thats the best thing with ostheer, play it safe, using all tiers.
11 Feb 2014, 15:11 PM
#7
Posts: 2561
It feels like many of my teamgames ostheer goes t4 for panthers and support them with PG spam. I do it as well. And if you go in to late game as soviet, how do you counter the mass panther/pgs? If you dont get the first panther when it shows it face, they start to get pesky to deal with.
Counter Panther/Pgren spam? HA, there is no counter. There is a reason everyone and their mother uses it and it's because it's uncounterable. Go t34/76 or 85 and they will be annihilated by the panthers. Su-85s might be able to manage the panthers, but then there are the pgren blobs. Even if you do hold off the pgren blobs, you are forced onto the defensive and then its just a matter of time before they spam opels and you get hit with constant call-ins.
The truth is in larger team games, the only way for the soviets to win is to never let the germans get anywhere near the same amount of resources your team is and to constantly harrass for their opels and caches. If the game is anywhere near close going into the late game it's game over.
11 Feb 2014, 15:21 PM
#8
Posts: 157
Uncounterable? What about AT guns + MGs? what about strafe run? What about t34-85? What about IS-2(not a hard counter to panther BUT lemme tell ya it does work vs pgrens)? what about snipers? what about mines? what about mines? what about mines? what about mines?
11 Feb 2014, 15:28 PM
#9
Posts: 2779
Guards/snipers/SU85 easy mode 
11 Feb 2014, 15:40 PM
#10
Posts: 1571
The counter against the Panthers/Infantry in team games are IS-2 doctrines.
Use IS-2s with Zis guns w/ conscripts & AT nades.
Use IS-2s with Zis guns w/ conscripts & AT nades.
11 Feb 2014, 15:41 PM
#11
Posts: 157
Regarding the OP however. I like to get t3 just for the strong mid-game presence. I'll grab a pair of stugs if they went for early t34 or it seems like they're waiting on 85 spam. Otherwise I go for p4 and ostwind if there is a lot of shocks on the field (but NEVER before a p4 or stug). Then I'll usually get a pak43, elefant, or tiger, usually going for two tigers in the late game.
I've found that in 2v2s you pretty much have to go one person with elefant or pak43 and one with tigers, at least that's been the easiest way to the W.
I've found that in 2v2s you pretty much have to go one person with elefant or pak43 and one with tigers, at least that's been the easiest way to the W.
11 Feb 2014, 15:58 PM
#12
Posts: 2561
Uncounterable? What about AT guns + MGs? what about strafe run? What about t34-85? What about IS-2(not a hard counter to panther BUT lemme tell ya it does work vs pgrens)? what about snipers? what about mines? what about mines? what about mines? what about mines?
Like I said, very defensive, but in late game when wherfers and call-in support comes out all those things have a tendency to blow up pretty quickly. Soviets only have so many munis. The soviets are forced onto the defensive where they can't harass caches and are extremely vulnerable to arty and call-ins.
Meanwhile the germans are more mobile then ever with the fastest tanks in the game and blobs of death. Russians still have plenty of infantry, but they are useless with out the AT guns and su-85s backing them up. Even then it only takes one strafe to nullify all of them and cause a retreat.
11 Feb 2014, 16:06 PM
#13
Posts: 542
I kind of stopped using T3 in 3on3 / 4on4 lately as well. Most enemies spam SU85s in my experience, and it is difficult to deal with them if you have only Panzer IV or StuG III once they become too many; eventually you want Panthers. You also get access to Panzerwerfer in T4 which is great, and the Brummbär is a bit more tanky and can help against enemy tanks as well in comparison to the Ostwind (although I used to prefer Ostwinds before).
You don't get Ostwinds for AA if you skip T3, but you can still use Scout Cars with the upgrade to deal with that, which is cheaper.
If you skip T3 you get your tanks a bit later, but you can survive until then with Pak 40 or Panzerschrecks.
If you go for Tigers instead of Panthers you can instead go for T3 of course, but I find the lack of mobility of Tigers annoying in such team games; SU85s beat them up before they get close and B4-artillery becomes even more deadly if you are too slow.
You don't get Ostwinds for AA if you skip T3, but you can still use Scout Cars with the upgrade to deal with that, which is cheaper.
If you skip T3 you get your tanks a bit later, but you can survive until then with Pak 40 or Panzerschrecks.
If you go for Tigers instead of Panthers you can instead go for T3 of course, but I find the lack of mobility of Tigers annoying in such team games; SU85s beat them up before they get close and B4-artillery becomes even more deadly if you are too slow.
11 Feb 2014, 16:27 PM
#14
Posts: 1571
^
In team games I either go tigers or go T4 and Brummbar first. (skip T3 completely) By then I hopefully still have 2 vetted PzG with Panzershrecks. The PzG + Brummbar work well.
I don't like the Pak40 very much compared to the PzG and will only get one based on terrain.
So after the brummbar then I get 2 Panthers, and then the Panzerwerfer. I will not get a panzerwerfer unless I have a panther in the field first.
I always have 1 Brummbar and 1 Panther on the field if possible.
====
With the Soviets, I also completely ignore T3. I go T4 only plus IS-2. I use the SU-76 if I get SU-85s. If I go IS-2, I don't bother with Su-76s.
A Zis pair is a must.
Once the armor I want on the field is there, I get the Rocket truck.
In team games I either go tigers or go T4 and Brummbar first. (skip T3 completely) By then I hopefully still have 2 vetted PzG with Panzershrecks. The PzG + Brummbar work well.
I don't like the Pak40 very much compared to the PzG and will only get one based on terrain.
So after the brummbar then I get 2 Panthers, and then the Panzerwerfer. I will not get a panzerwerfer unless I have a panther in the field first.
I always have 1 Brummbar and 1 Panther on the field if possible.
====
With the Soviets, I also completely ignore T3. I go T4 only plus IS-2. I use the SU-76 if I get SU-85s. If I go IS-2, I don't bother with Su-76s.
A Zis pair is a must.
Once the armor I want on the field is there, I get the Rocket truck.
11 Feb 2014, 16:50 PM
#15
Posts: 125
Guards/snipers/SU85 easy mode
poef smoke bye 40 ammo for button. poef blitz haha im out of range.......
11 Feb 2014, 17:16 PM
#16
Posts: 598
Panzer Grenadier + Panther is not that hard when you get a good force holding the line, Panzerwerfer + Panther is the more difficult combination in my opinion.
Panzer Grenadiers can be defeated by well placed Maxim guns, Shock Troopers, Mines, but a Panzerwerfer defended by Panthers can defeat all of that.
Panzerwerfer can defeat all infantry units and destroy Soviet mines, leaving your Armor vulnerable to Panthers.
I think you don't see T3 often because the main tank in the building the Panzer IV has a horrendous scatter range that sometimes when you flank an SU85 it either completely misses or shoots at the front of the tank. The Stug III is a glass cannon and are useless when SU85s hit the field except when they use marked target but I found that ability really buggy. T3 units are unreliable, and are only good at getting quick tanks or good anti air. I only choose T3 if I'm able to get a Tiger tank, or an Elefant but that also means I have to be very careful and defensive till I get the Heavy tanks to go back on the offensive.
T3 is the quicker cheaper variants of T4. T4 beats everything.
Panzer Grenadiers can be defeated by well placed Maxim guns, Shock Troopers, Mines, but a Panzerwerfer defended by Panthers can defeat all of that.
Panzerwerfer can defeat all infantry units and destroy Soviet mines, leaving your Armor vulnerable to Panthers.
I think you don't see T3 often because the main tank in the building the Panzer IV has a horrendous scatter range that sometimes when you flank an SU85 it either completely misses or shoots at the front of the tank. The Stug III is a glass cannon and are useless when SU85s hit the field except when they use marked target but I found that ability really buggy. T3 units are unreliable, and are only good at getting quick tanks or good anti air. I only choose T3 if I'm able to get a Tiger tank, or an Elefant but that also means I have to be very careful and defensive till I get the Heavy tanks to go back on the offensive.
T3 is the quicker cheaper variants of T4. T4 beats everything.
11 Feb 2014, 17:30 PM
#17
Posts: 1571
Panzerwerfers are good, but I'm not a fan of their firing rate. They fire faster than the Soviet rocket truck, but fire only 1 more accurate barrage instead of three.
Experience has showed me that the Soviet rocket truck is simply much more effective. It carpet bombs an area that will completely punish blobbing and will give a 2nd or 3rd chance if the 1st barrage misses. The Panzerwerfer's small strikes are often not enough- too often I don't do the damage I want or it misses. Then the opportunity is lost.
So the Germans are a bit weak in the rocket department, and I will sometimes get 2 Panzerwerfers if I can afford it. Rocket trucks- only 1 is needed.
Experience has showed me that the Soviet rocket truck is simply much more effective. It carpet bombs an area that will completely punish blobbing and will give a 2nd or 3rd chance if the 1st barrage misses. The Panzerwerfer's small strikes are often not enough- too often I don't do the damage I want or it misses. Then the opportunity is lost.
So the Germans are a bit weak in the rocket department, and I will sometimes get 2 Panzerwerfers if I can afford it. Rocket trucks- only 1 is needed.
11 Feb 2014, 17:56 PM
#18
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
poef smoke bye 40 ammo for button. poef blitz haha im out of range.......
In which case a munitions light faction has traded 40 munitions for 80 in a munitions heavy faction. That seems like a fair trade.
I find that the complaints of smoke + blitz are from the psychological effect of losing a potential kill, less so because of the damage it does.
11 Feb 2014, 18:02 PM
#19
Posts: 1003
munitions light faction ...... munitions heavy faction.
Damit
If you want win, it is non-stop throwing molotovs, laying mines, nades, buton .........
I want to have the same chance, to win for each side.
11 Feb 2014, 19:15 PM
#20
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
Damit
If you want win, it is non-stop throwing molotovs, laying mines, nades, buton .........
That is correct. Soviets rely on combined arms and unit abilities to defeat Ost, whereas Ost relies on excellent individual unit micro because of their fewer units. Ost abilities generally revolve around preserving units for longer periods.
I really enjoy playing as Soviet right now I can easily take down almost any tank with 2 guards squads and a shot or two from an AT gun. Button is expensive, but you should be getting a kill on a tank for using it so definitely worth it.
I never have more fun then when I am Soviet and am laying down a mine field and luring my opponent into it before I spring the trap and destroy 3 or 4 squads at once. Quite fun, often gets the rage quit.
TLDR: Munitions = MP, spend yours take theirs!
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