Sniper Balance

hmmm maybe instand vet your sniper. I've watched the mTw stream yesterday and hansi killed with the vet sniper ability two sniper squads ^^
I'm trying to hide my grens and use rifle nades.

Yeah. I tried that as well. It's quite tricky because if Soviet Sniper go stealth before Vet1 shot animation ends you Sniper goes crazy and freezes forever trying to aim.

No need to go mad, hatter.

+1 xDDD

I take everything I said back. 2 Sniper + Guard combo is unbeatable by anything German can ship early game. Survivability on this unit is retarded while last game I lost my Sniper to mortar shell that was meters a way. It looked like he died from wind this blast caused.

I've lost every game when this combo was present. In 2v2 is even worse. I run out of options how to beat this.

Oh wow, someone actually noticed this by now? I'm impressed...

Edit: Just to clarify it once more.

You cannot balance snipers if

a) you have no recon vehicles (cheap jeeps/bikes/whatever) and
b) squad sizes allow one sniper to kill the other while he can't be killed off in 1 shot
c) soviet snipers can actually be driven around in earlygame halftracks while the other doesn't.

So, as it stands, coh 2 snipers are broken.

You only have 2 options:

- match stats of Ostheer sniper and soviet sniper and make both a 2man team
- match stats of both snipers and make them 1 man squads
edit: I actually could think of a 3rd option:
- make snipers only drain health until the squads have less than 50% life. However, stats still need to be completely remade for them

Everything else will not work. You can try to bandaid this whole mess (just like relic did with nerfing clowncar/soviet sniper offensive power into oblivion). This doesn't change the fact that the unit design is broken. It only makes the unit so unattractive that nobody uses it anymore (so, they cover up the broken mess by making the units useless).

We spent 4 months trying to balance a 2man sniper team for soviets against Wehrmacht during 1.400 in Eastern Front mod, and still we could not come up with a working solution without changing either unit's design. So, in the end we adopted the working 1-man squad vCoH system to the soviet sniper - voilá, problem solved.

That's not a coincidence.

Oh wow, someone actually noticed this by now? I'm impressed...

Edit: Just to clarify it once more.

You cannot balance snipers if

a) you have no recon vehicles (cheap jeeps/bikes/whatever) and
b) squad sizes allow one sniper to kill the other while he can't be killed off in 1 shot
c) soviet snipers can actually be driven around in earlygame halftracks while the other doesn't.

So, as it stands, coh 2 snipers are broken.

You only have 2 options:

- match stats of Ostheer sniper and soviet sniper and make both a 2man team
- match stats of both snipers and make them 1 man squads
edit: I actually could think of a 3rd option:
- make snipers only drain health until the squads have less than 50% life. However, stats still need to be completely remade for them

Everything else will not work. You can try to bandaid this whole mess (just like relic did with nerfing clowncar/soviet sniper offensive power into oblivion). This doesn't change the fact that the unit design is broken. It only makes the unit so unattractive that nobody uses it anymore (so, they cover up the broken mess by making the units useless).

We spent 4 months trying to balance a 2man sniper team for soviets against Wehrmacht during 1.400 in Eastern Front mod, and still we could not come up with a working solution without changing either unit's design. So, in the end we adopted the working 1-man squad vCoH system to the soviet sniper - voilá, problem solved.

That's not a coincidence.

Second option is problem. If snipers are both one man, OST have hudge advantage. Soviets must build T1 + T2, if want cover sniper with MG (mortar) also as OST can.

Second option is problem. If snipers are both one man, OST have hudge advantage. Soviets must build T1 + T2, if want cover sniper with MG (mortar) also as OST can.

Agreed.
Snipers ARE soviet T1, rest is supplemental for snipers(M3) or just plain useless(penals).
Thats enough of a reason to have them sniper wars advantage.

Second option is problem. If snipers are both one man, OST have hudge advantage. Soviets must build T1 + T2, if want cover sniper with MG (mortar) also as OST can.

Read post completely. If both sniper 1 man team of course Wehr sniper need nerf. Understood? Good.

Read post completely. If both sniper 1 man team of course Wehr sniper need nerf. Understood? Good.

Or Soviet sniper gets a buff (cover bonus/armor of ost).

Another alternative would be to make the "spotter" and the "sniper" two non-interchangeable entities - meaning that if the sniper model dies, the spotter model can still get the sniper reinforced (similar to the Ost Officer), but does not automatically become the sniper.

I really enjoy these mornings of whining German fans, in fact just come to the forum to see what they are going to complain now, sovs op that, sov op there... maybe the best solution its make COMPANY OF GERMANS german faction vs german faction

I agree with him..just make them equal stats, 1 man, and problem solved..

Build G43's. They will melt Snipers. Heavy Grenadier play with G-43's with a unupgraded Half Track to reinforce is the best way to deal with Soviet Sniper. Their insanely long range that prettymuch rivals the sniper and their very high accuracy at range makes it very easy to get the squad wipe, let alone just bleeding 90 munitions by counter sniping one of the crew. Considering you can't really get anything fantastic until 3CP, there's no reason to have picked a doctrine by the time the Sniper shows up and G43's are available. If it's a late game sniper you've got the Ostwind and PanzerWerfer to snipe it.

Other than that on a lot of maps you can really abuse the early game infantry deficit that the Soviet will have by going for a sniper by focusing on avoiding engagements and just being hyper aggressive with decapping and capping points. In the exact same style of indirectly dealing with a German Sniper as Soviets by abusing the impact it has on the infantry count. If I see a fast sniper on Langres I go 5-6 Grens into Half track and just be hyper aggressive. You should be 2 squads ahead of Grenadiers compared to Conscripts because of the sniper you can usually have much better capping power and map presence to the Soviet. Then if need be, if you have 3 Grens squads in a blob and just walk in the direction of the sniper you should lose 2 Grens and then force the retreat further capitalising on the decapping. So many Germans do not know how to adapt and cope and stay on a standard Gren Gren MG, Mortar, PGren and getting MG42 upgrade or something similar style of play.

Just like Soviets,playing as per normal with a standard unit composition ensure a loss against a good Sniper on Langres, Crossing in the Woods or perhaps even Semois. It's absoutely laughable when Germans build Panzer Grenadiers against a sniper and lose 45manpower per shot. 5-6 Gren play should be fine. A lot of people may be thinking going that heavy on Grens leaves you to vulnerable to Shocks. Yes it would, but no Soviet is going to go Sniper AND Shocks because then that would leave them completely open to getting absolutely rolled by a fast Flame Half Track or Scout cars. If that happens, get fast Minesweepers because mines would be their only form of preventing them from just outright losing the game to a Flame Half Track.

Bear in my mind my perspective is coming entirely from a 1v1 perspective. The issue with the Soviet sniper is it's power is so map dependant. On Crossing in the Woods or Langres for example they are rediculous strong (Unless you have G43's.) because of how open the maps are. Whereas on a map such as Kholodny or Road to Kharkov they are just simply not viable because of how many hedges, garrisons and shotblockers their are in the way of everything.

Keep in mind the Soviet Sniper costs 360mp + 200mp for Tier1 and having the engineer back to base for a while to build the Tier1. Where as the German sniper just costs 360mp from the barracks and then still gets every tech. The Soviet Sniper is a huge investment not only cost and map prescense/capping power, but also in opportunity cost.

Having Tier1 means that you don't have AT guns, don't have Mortars and don't have Maxim's. A huge blow that limits your options and counters. For example you can't counter a P4 with T-34 + AT gun. You need 2xT-34 unless the German is silly enough to drive over a mine somewhere unsupported. Since the Soviet will almost always go Tier1 into Tier 4 because without AT guns from Tier2 T-34's are just not effective against either P4's or Stugs, it means that the German could even skip Tier2 and a half track entirely and rush a Super fast ostwind before the SU-85 is near completion, and then backtech into Tier2 get 2 AT guns to ward off the SU-85 and then save up for a Panther or Tiger.

The Soviet Sniper is indirectly much stronger than German Sniper because of squad sizes and manpower bleed, but it's balanced by it being also such a huge investment to get both in the short term and then the long term because of the lack of units. It's like comparing Shocks to Panzer Grenadiers. Sure Shocks are better but they're more expensive, are Commander specific and now you can't get Guards as a result. If the Soviet Sniper was on Tier2 instead of either the Mortar or Maxim, then that would cause serious balance issues.

That being said, the sprint ability is just absurd and needs to be removed. It prevents a well executed flank from getting the squad wipe that it deserves to get. I'm fine with say the scout car having a super speedy boost, but a sniper team is silly and does not fit at all. Nerfing the sniper is a delicate situation because if it's balanced out to a level where it's balanced on the 2-3 maps that are causing issues at the moment, then the sniper alongside the rest of tech path would be even more useless and completely unviable on the majority of the other maps. As for team games... well teams games are never going to be balanced with how blobby and spammy they are.

But at the end of the day I think Germans really need to adapt their play style and not just do the same predetermined strategy and unit composition regardless of what they see. Something that is absolutely fundamental to playing Soviets because of the limitations and specialisation of the tiers and commanders.

Read post completely. If both sniper 1 man team of course Wehr sniper need nerf. Understood? Good.

OK, i bad translate "- match stats of both snipers and make them 1 man squads".

I am still prefere natural counters bike/jeeps. And/or longer scout radius for recon units. They can have 2x bigger detection radius against cloak units.

The mp drain the sov soviet causes early game is crippling. By the time you have an ostwind or werfer, he has su85 su76 and/or katuyshas. And if your me, I will probably have a su85 AND a t34/85 out on the field since I use that new doctrine which works great with the t1-t4 build.

If he managed to keep the scout car alive g43s wont do much damage to a sniper in a scout car.

I really enjoy these mornings of whining German fans, in fact just come to the forum to see what they are going to complain now, sovs op that, sov op there... maybe the best solution its make COMPANY OF GERMANS german faction vs german faction

Maybe best solution we rename CoH2.org into "company-of-people-who-have-actually-a-clue-about-broken-gameplay-mechanics.org" and remove posting rights for people who don't...


joke aside.

It's not a balance problem people are whining about, it's the design how the units are setup. And this design is ... let's say... suboptimal. It's like you have a maserati with a 20hp engine. Looks good, but drives awful. This + coh 2 = sniper mechanics.

If he managed to keep the scout car alive g43s wont do much damage to a sniper in a scout car.

You would actually be incredibly surprised how fast 2+ squads of G43's chunk down a Scout Car.

I had a thought about this the other night. I think the fundamental issue has been laid out before where the sniper just doesn't fit the rest of the game. There's nothing else that is so blindly "1 hit, 1 kill" and is so expensive yet so fragile. This was a problem in vCoH as well, but perhaps mitigated because the snipers were equivalent.

If snipers were changed to say "Marksman" squad, that might allow them to fit into the game more appropriately. Basically a 3 man squad with 1 spotter and 2 scoped rifles. The scoped rifles are for all intents and purposes identical to the script/gren counterpart except with their accuracy tables inverted (and maintaining their current extra range). Extremely high accuracy at long range, poor accuracy up close, and average at middle. Instead of 1 hit 1 kill with long aim time, they would just fire "normally" and deal normal damage.

EDIT: Clarification.

Surely there would be other changes that fall out as a result of this, but the take away idea here is how to make snipers fit the CoH model better. I think this keeps the intent and feel of snipers but without the complete polarization effect we have today.

You would actually be incredibly surprised how fast 2+ squads of G43's chunk down a Scout Car.

Who cares? You can also bring in 4 ostwinds, they'll also deal with a scout car in a matter of seconds. What kind of comparison is this anyways? Clown cars are used during the first 5 minutes of the match. well before the 2cp mark where you unlock g43s (as long as they have not been shifted to 1cp or something like that with the last patch).


Question is: Is it cost efficient/fun to be forced into either Jäger infantry (<- LOL at this one) or elite troops (=lolol p2win commander, let's pay 5 bucks to win vs snipaspam!!) just to counter a clowncar?

Answer: no, it's not. So, it's bad for the gameplay. If it's bad for the gameplay people don't like it. If they don't like it they stop playing. If people stop playing the game dies eventually. Gj.

edit:

Show Spoiler

This system would actually work with some fine tuning.

I'm with PwnageMachine on this one. Balancing snipers is not a trivial issue and it's a very map dependent issue at that.

From a 1v1 perspective it's mainly the scout car + sniper combo that is problematic. I would further reduce their accuracy when on the move and when stationary to make them less reliable.

That being said, I think counters to this strategy still have room to evolve.

-There's the gren spam strat that PwnageMachine suggested.
-Ostruppen
-Mortar smoke to cover troops.
-Mine baiting is also rare.
-Also, wire.

-G43 are 3 CP

-Lightings also has G43s

-Sniper are mostly annoying on 2v2, when you have your partner going quick T34. Any invesment on either T2, halftrack, AC or MHT is a blessing to see since it will delay even further their tech. AND if you force your opponents going T3 it is also a win win.

From a 1v1 perspective it's mainly the scout car + sniper combo that is problematic. I would further reduce their accuracy when on the move and when stationary to make them less reliable.

That being said, I think counters to this strategy still have room to evolve.

-There's the gren spam strat that PwnageMachine suggested.
-Ostruppen
-Mortar smoke to cover troops.
-Mine baiting is also rare.
-Also, wire.

1- I think it hits a bit too late to be reliable. IDK, its a race of teching and forcing a mistake/lucky shot vs mp bleed. Luckily T3485s arrive way later
2- DLC
3- Possible, but that just makes you pull back you snipers.
4- With the sign that says mines are here? Or are you talking about a tellermine? You have to be too lucky and it just only works for the first minutes when they are inside SC.
5- SC breaking wire?

T0 bikes n jeeps ?

Yup just had 5 2v2 games same thing every time sniper blob ruining infantry with guards sat ready to defend them.

Thing i find the worst is every time i try and hang on to late game i get finished off by call in units. I know relic said that commanders were meant to be there to the support core armies soviets seem to be doing pretty well without most of their core units.

Guess i'd like to actually fight someone diverse when i'm playing Germans but right now its the same thing every game.

Yup just had 5 2v2 games same thing every time sniper blob ruining infantry with guards sat ready to defend them.

Thing i find the worst is every time i try and hang on to late game i get finished off by call in units. I know relic said that commanders were meant to be there to the support core armies soviets seem to be doing pretty well without most of their core units.

Guess i'd like to actually fight someone diverse when i'm playing Germans but right now its the same thing every game.

This really is a 2 V 2+ issue more than anything as its an exploit that simply can not be easily countered when one of the 2 team players is spamming snipers - get 3 or 4 snipers up and that's essentially GG for any form of infantry based unit - the other races to get up some armor and it's over.

The upcoming 2 v 2 tournament will be a landslide Soviet win and will also expose a lot of the short comings of the "balance" we currently see now with Soviet exploits in team games.

Then again - this game seems to think over powering one faction for say T1 and then having the other faction over powering in the later portion of the game as "balance" - basically ensuing that a "typical" soviet team will control the beginning of the game and then the Wehrmacht team will "come back" with their dominant Panthers etc with only 20 on the VP clock - trying to artificially create "cliff hanger" type games.

It doesn't work.

It's not fun.

It's not balance.