Panzergrens

gotta do a disclaimer 1st. this is in no retaliation towards shocktroopers. infact, I'm more of a guards player than a shock player. but i find myself t the massive disadvantage, guards and conscripts dont have the oomph to stop these guys from facerolling.

anyone that has played germans will in some way or another get a couple of pgren to stem the tide of soviet infantry (not that LMG and rifle nades dont do the job, pgrens takes alot lesser micro).

however, these guys are basically assault grens on steroids, they do effective damage on the move and from range and when close up, they are even more lethal. they faceroll conscripts, penals and guards just like shocktroopers faceroll grenadiers. maintaining range and in cover do nothing when guards/cons dont have the dps.

the only thing capable of stopping them are shocktroopers, penal's satchel charges, good artillery hits. conscripts are in no way capable even with ppshes and molotovs since pgrens are mobile and do even more dps than conscripts with or without ppshes.

moving on, with vet, they become monsters, shredding all soviet infantry with ease. but here's the worst, even more so than shocktroopers is that they are so versatile, using tanks against them is a bad strategy too. panzerschrecks are counter buffed by vehicle fire on the move nerf, that means t34s on the move are virtually useless against pgrens and they can chase AI tanks for god knows when with their schrecks. whats more, schrecks have the same aim and accuracy as tanks, they can now fight tanks effectively at tank combat ranges.

so what is up? was nothing learnt at vcoh? when schrecks, bazookas and piats all have their long range accuracy nerfed?

while panzerschrecks cut AI by half, the dps of stg44 still remains deadly. at close range, it does 13.277, at long 1.775. by comparison, a grenadier rifle does 3.775 at close, long range they do 1.029. a healthy vanila gren squad will do 15.1dps at close range, about 4dps at long. while a schrecked pgren squad will do 26.554 at close, 3.55 at long. a good 85% of a vanilla gren squad dps is retained at long range and much deadlier at close. so the idea that they are not effective in AI is very debatable, because clearly, they are still rather effective against rifle troops

this brings us to the next issue, they have the same problem with shocktroopers, individually, they are manageable, spam 4-5 of them, they become a problem. but they amplify it by being able to take on armour. while shocks roll only infantry, a combination of 4-5 squads of pgrens with a couple upgraded with schrecks are able to achieve the anti everything force.

pgrens needs a good looking at, for their cost, availability and anti all potential, they need nerfs. same with shocks for reasons that are painfully obvious.

^Well thought out and absolutely true. As a history buff, I'd love to see PGs as a 5 man squad with the option to buy and LMG, G43s, and a single shreck (all separately, mind you). Terminators? Yes. Very, very expensive? Also yes.

However, "HURR BALANCE > REALISM SKRUB L2P SO BAD MUCH FAIL".

Oh, and then Relic might not make as much of a profit out of people buying commanders to try and stem the tide of PGs (I dunno, maybe soviet industry or something? beats me, honestly).

TL; DR it seems nobody cares at this point. People have yelled about stuff like this in the past and the weapons, availability, and capabilities of infantry squads have remained almost unchanged.

considering that pgrens cost 50% more than grens, but have the same hp and armor, the only reason theyre worth the cost is because of their dps. so why should a conscript be able to beat pgrens? even if you take ppsh, theyre still much cheaper. pgrens are the strongest german infantry, cons are the cheapest soviet infantry and t0. thats like complaining that grens cant beat shocks.

as for your analysis of pgren dps, you failed to factor in the drop in dps when entities die. they have pretty good dps when its a 4 man schreck squad. lose 1 man and your dps is now cut in half. 1 more and dps is essentially 0, excluding very rare schreck hits. youre also risking dropping schrecks at that point, which is a big hit to german munitions and is also deadly in the hands of 6 man soviet squads.

without taking the schreck upgrade, pgrens have the same weakness as penals/shocks/agrens. they have no AT. pgrens are either AI or AT, but not both at the same time.

4 man PG squad is easy picking for sniper. 2 shots and you can force a retreat. I don't see why PG's AI is such an issue, considering they're the only Ost infantry apart from Grens. (I'm not considering AssGrens because they're only in 1 doctrine)

considering that pgrens cost 50% more than grens, but have the same hp and armor, the only reason theyre worth the cost is because of their dps. so why should a conscript be able to beat pgrens? even if you take ppsh, theyre still much cheaper. pgrens are the strongest german infantry, cons are the cheapest soviet infantry and t0. thats like complaining that grens cant beat shocks.

as for your analysis of pgren dps, you failed to factor in the drop in dps when entities die. they have pretty good dps when its a 4 man schreck squad. lose 1 man and your dps is now cut in half. 1 more and dps is essentially 0, excluding very rare schreck hits. youre also risking dropping schrecks at that point, which is a big hit to german munitions and is also deadly in the hands of 6 man soviet squads.

without taking the schreck upgrade, pgrens have the same weakness as penals/shocks/agrens. they have no AT. pgrens are either AI or AT, but not both at the same time.

I think you have missed the point entirely. the point here is that, pgrens are too good at what they do, faceraping all matter of soviet 'RIFLE' infantry. once reaching critical mass, they facerape almost everything except the heaviest of tanks.

going by your logic, shocktroopers should steamroll german infantry and completely invalidate them? if so, there wouldnt be a 15page discussion on it and the general consensus that shocks are too good. even more so, they should when they cost 1cp, doctrinally locked and cost 440mp compared to a t2 ost unit that are available to all commanders at 360mp. but no, even I think that is absurd and needs to be toned down.

similarly for penal battalion, they cost 50% more than conscripts, retain the same armour and hp, yet are not mowing down grenadiers like no tomorrow. that is accceptable, but pgrens are not, they must cut down all rifle infantry?

while conscripts are 'THE' cheapest soviet infantry, they are not free. while true that pgrens should have an advantage over conscripts, they should not be able to walk all over them.

currently the usage and results of pgrens is essentially the same as shocks, rush through open cover, hose everything down with bullets, chuck a nade here and there then walk out with vet and a couple of casualties, with 5-10 dead soviet soldiers laying all over. they should never have this kind of lethality. all while the soviet player watch in horror as his rifle infantry are cut down while under cover against 4 dudes with wonder weapons.

while i may have failed to factor in the drop in dps, it happens for all infantry squads. take guards for example, ptrs do nothing and guards already have mediocre dps, for every guardsmen that dies, dps is also cut. lose half of the guards squad, and they cant even take on tanks and do negligible damage to infantry, so pgrens arent the only unit suffering from this 'phenomenon'.

but what we cannot discount is pgrens after the upgrade, are NOT helpless against infantry. they have their nade still, their dps is acceptable and can defend themselves against infantry trying to force a retreat on them. try to use a conscript to intercept them, a 240mp dedicated AI squad might take heavy casualties from this 360mp/120munition AT squad. but actually this is a very minor point that I made to show

this brings us to the next issue, they have the same problem with shocktroopers, individually, they are manageable, spam 4-5 of them, they become a problem. but they amplify it by being able to take on armour. while shocks roll only infantry, a combination of 4-5 squads of pgrens with a couple upgraded with schrecks are able to achieve the anti everything force.

this is the real problem, once they achieve that moving blob of dps, there is no soviet infantry that can take them on. they will dish out so much damage on all sorts of soviet infantry. bring out tanks and you can turn a couple of them into AT squads and still walk all over soviet lines, even more so when tanks are penalized for moving and shooting.

currently pgrens may seem okay, because shocks are keeping them in check, take that away and ask a guards player, it is a huge problem.

If you like guards you should often have t1. A single sniper will hurt PG's so bad it is not funny.

If they blob up great, get one maxim, or find an empty mg42, or use a HT at range, to suppress them, then hit them with strafe or incendiary. You can also try kats or mortars. The blob of PG's is so non-threatening, when I see it I am so excited. I am about to win the game by making my opponent give up all his mp.

Even funnier lead him back into a mine field with a sniper. Nothing trolls players more than having them chase you around a minefield then lose all their men while your sniper gets vet.

Also note if he has a blob (lets us say 4 PG's) that would be 4x360 = 1440 mp, which is 3 shock trooper squads. 3 shocks will always beat 4 PG's if the PG's have shreks, or some of them do.

like I said, pgrens are of no issue when there only a small amount. it is when they hit critical mass, then things are problematic.

snipers are a great counter to pgrens, but 3 pgrens running down ur infantry such as conscripts, guards, only 1 squad have to chase down the sniper, the other 2 will clean up the riflemen bundled nades and stg44 produce so much dps that conscripts, guards cannot compete even if you outnumber them.

also getting a maxim and a sniper means opening myself free to ostwinds/p4 rush.

Panzergrenadiers are extremely potent when they can just roll through everything without being focus fired. So they need to advance around a sight blocking obstacle or catch something like an MG from behind.

If there is a battle and Panzergrenadiers are advancing from longer ranges than right around a corner or something, you can focus fire them with all of your infantry and thus force them to retreat before they walk through your conscripts. Their armor and HP are the same as normal Grenadiers' and while they are advancing they don't have cover, sometimes even negative (red) cover.

I understand how they can be seen as "too strong" when they can get a flanking route that protects them from rifle fire or if they catch a Maxim or AT gun or a lone capping conscript squad while your attention is elsewhere.
However, when you pay attention they can be countered pretty easily because they are basically "glass cannons". If you are spread out and they run for one conscript squad, you can even use that one to throw a molotov, then use Oorah and run away while your other 2 conscript squads focus the PGrens.

Another thing that helps against them are grenades, satchels and molotovs (area denial through flame effect is great!). If you throw one of those in their path, they will lose a lot of their firepower because they will have to dodge (giving you more time to focus fire them) or will lose some men.


If they are massed, this means you can put a massive manpower strain on your enemy with vehicles (when there are no Schrecks), a sniper or a maxim. Remember you don't need to kill all of them. Your enemy has to retreat them the moment they drop down to 2 men or he risks losing the whole squad.

I never see PG can walk into Maxim without flanking, neglecting snipers and kill the maxim, and grab it.

But I always see shocky walk into MG42 at the face, still able to chunk a nade into MG42 and grab it.

What?

Personally I find PGs strong, but not op like Shocks are at 1 cp. Also, I seem to lose loads of full PG squads by hitting a mine making it quite a vulnerable unit.

"Mines will make a nasty trap."
-Random Pio

From a high level 1v1 perspective i see absolutely no problem with multiple Panzergrenadiere, since they got clear disadvantages (45 reinforcement cost) and counters (Snipers, Mgs, Vehicles, Explosives, Mines, Shocks, Infantry (if upgraded with Schreck)).

But i can see the average player having trouble with the unkillable anti-everything blob of doom.

considering that pgrens cost 50% more than grens, but have the same hp and armor, the only reason theyre worth the cost is because of their dps. so why should a conscript be able to beat pgrens? even if you take ppsh, theyre still much cheaper. pgrens are the strongest german infantry, cons are the cheapest soviet infantry and t0. thats like complaining that grens cant beat shocks.

as for your analysis of pgren dps, you failed to factor in the drop in dps when entities die. they have pretty good dps when its a 4 man schreck squad. lose 1 man and your dps is now cut in half. 1 more and dps is essentially 0, excluding very rare schreck hits. youre also risking dropping schrecks at that point, which is a big hit to german munitions and is also deadly in the hands of 6 man soviet squads.

without taking the schreck upgrade, pgrens have the same weakness as penals/shocks/agrens. they have no AT. pgrens are either AI or AT, but not both at the same time.

Wooof I cpletely agree with you that cons shouldn't be able to stand up to pgrens 1v1 especially not if tyey get in close. Cons are a) cheaper and b) aren't designed for close combat. The same can be said for grens getting mowed by 1cp 440 mp doctrinal elite infantry ... But for some reason that sparks a huge QQ thread. Both pgrens and shocks need to be dealt with properly or they will face roll. However I find pgrens a little harder to deal with because you can't just go after them with vehicles because they can become the best AT infantry in game with the click of a butolton (assuming of course that the resources are there).

Personally I don't mind pgrens being as good at AI as they are, its the superb AT power of shreks in combination witg good AI that gives me a headache seeing as how if you dont happen to have a kv8 callin option it gets pretty rough.

Kill one member of the squad and they are at 75% dps. They must be retreated at half strength. Build snipers, get shocks, throw a decent guard grenade, have penals in green cover, Mortar them, suppress with maxium, mines. All of these options are available to the soviet player prior to Pgrens hitting the field!!! Personally Pgrens are a joke to me in game as I have a multitude of counters available right of the bat and they destroy the Ost MP.

From a high level 1v1 perspective i see absolutely no problem with multiple Panzergrenadiere, since they got clear disadvantages (45 reinforcement cost) and counters (Snipers, Mgs, Vehicles, Explosives, Mines, Shocks, Infantry (if upgraded with Schreck)).

But i can see the average player having trouble with the unkillable anti-everything blob of doom.

it might not be so bad in 1v1, it sure is in 2v2 where it is easier to hit critical mass. vehicles is barely an answer to these guys because of the recent vehicle nerfs as explained in my 1st post.

Wooof I cpletely agree with you that cons shouldn't be able to stand up to pgrens 1v1 especially not if tyey get in close. Cons are a) cheaper and b) aren't designed for close combat. The same can be said for grens getting mowed by 1cp 440 mp doctrinal elite infantry ... But for some reason that sparks a huge QQ thread. Both pgrens and shocks need to be dealt with properly or they will face roll. However I find pgrens a little harder to deal with because you can't just go after them with vehicles because they can become the best AT infantry in game with the click of a butolton (assuming of course that the resources are there).

Personally I don't mind pgrens being as good at AI as they are, its the superb AT power of shreks in combination witg good AI that gives me a headache seeing as how if you dont happen to have a kv8 callin option it gets pretty rough.

Shrecked PGs become more of a support squad against Vehicles. Meaning they are left with half their AI capability. Just snipe them or shoot them at a long range. Don`t ask for a nerf on the only almost "elite" infantry the OS have. Also if you like Guards as you said you should have 1 sniper at least. Guards are good when vetted you can even use them against PG`s with shrecks. Also shrecks are a burst damage AT and it takes them quite some time to reload, if you got cause off guard by a shrecked blob well that is your mistake.

Use a Maxim to control PG blob. Works every time.

going by your logic, shocktroopers should steamroll german infantry and completely invalidate them? if so, there wouldnt be a 15page discussion on it and the general consensus that shocks are too good. even more so, they should when they cost 1cp, doctrinally locked and cost 440mp compared to a t2 ost unit that are available to all commanders at 360mp. but no, even I think that is absurd and needs to be toned down.

isnt that exactly what shocks are doing right now? hence the 15 page discussion. besides, the issue with shocks right now is the timing, not the unit. they dont "cost" 1cp, you can just spam them at 1 cp. that comes much sooner than t2 for germans. the only thing germans have to stop them in t1 is mgs, which are also unreliable because shocks have smoke.

similarly for penal battalion, they cost 50% more than conscripts, retain the same armour and hp, yet are not mowing down grenadiers like no tomorrow. that is accceptable, but pgrens are not, they must cut down all rifle infantry?

penals have more than double the dps of conscript squads at all ranges. also, penals are long range infantry and have better dps than pgrens at any range over 20m. sit back in cover and watch the germans die.

while i may have failed to factor in the drop in dps, it happens for all infantry squads. take guards for example, ptrs do nothing and guards already have mediocre dps, for every guardsmen that dies, dps is also cut. lose half of the guards squad, and they cant even take on tanks and do negligible damage to infantry, so pgrens arent the only unit suffering from this 'phenomenon'.

yes, every squads dps goes down when units die, but guards have 6 men, 4 with AI weapons. that means they have twice as many entities with 80 hp and 1.5 armor that can die before their dps is 0. that lets guards fight twice as long. on top of that, if the guards have DPs, those 2 guys account for roughly 2/3 of the guards dps. so if pgrens lose 2 men, they have 0 dps, when guards lose 2 men, theyre at 2/3 dps. thats a big difference.

this is the real problem, once they achieve that moving blob of dps, there is no soviet infantry that can take them on. they will dish out so much damage on all sorts of soviet infantry. bring out tanks and you can turn a couple of them into AT squads and still walk all over soviet lines, even more so when tanks are penalized for moving and shooting.

if you go t1, you have snipers. if you go t2, maxims. if theyre blobbing, you can also get a mortar, or just place mices. pgrens are very expensive to reinforce, take advantage of that. if you only want to build cons and guards, i can see why youd have problems, so change your build. i dont see why have snipers or maxims opens you up to ostwind/p4 rush. you have guards, if you went t2, build a zis. then you can even barrage that blob of pgrens as it charges.

Guards stand up fairly well against pgrens. Don't forget too that by the time pgrens hit the field your cons should have some vet to stand up to them a little. Pgrens will win but be bloodied and bruised after charging a vet 2 con squad, or may even lost against a vet 2 con squad with ppsh (speaking for vet0 pgrens).

Shrecked PGs become more of a support squad against Vehicles. Meaning they are left with half their AI capability. Just snipe them or shoot them at a long range. Don`t ask for a nerf on the only almost "elite" infantry the OS have. Also if you like Guards as you said you should have 1 sniper at least. Guards are good when vetted you can even use them against PG`s with shrecks. Also shrecks are a burst damage AT and it takes them quite some time to reload, if you got cause off guard by a shrecked blob well that is your mistake.

Just to clarify I didn't ask for a nerf. Was just stating that it can be tough to deal with. If everything was face roll easy the game wouldn't be fun.

That and I was poking fun at everyone losing their minds about shocks, when in reality the two units are quite similar.