How to nerf RNG gods

examples:

1) molotovs - one of first RNG in game, if it gets good crit it insta kill like 2-3 guys

soultion: let the molotov flame deal like 4 damage per second, and 6 damage for the first 2 seconds when it hits the ground, let it work as incendiary grenade from CoH1, no RNG, pure skill

2) Abandoned vehicles - another great RNG, if you get lucky you can take out crew on Tiger and safely drive it away in few seconds

solution: you or enemy must repair abandoned vehicle to let's say 20% health and after that you can capture vehicle

3) off-map incediary barrage (stuka included) - is also RNG when it can crit quickly units, if the MG gunner gets killed in first second they have no chance to retreat

solution: let it work same way as molotov but with increased damage (5 per second maybe and 3 on units retreating thru it)

4) RAM - the greatest RNG of all times, face of Ostheer players that gets Tiger ace rammed right into it's face is priceless

solution: i have no idea how RAM could be fixed, it's best to replace it with "overdrive ability"

5) Ice - I've seen replay where Tiger Ace gets sunk by molotov (lol wut?)

solution: buff Ice, only bigger shells should one-shot tanks on ice and reduce/remove damage done to ice by all kind of infantry grenades and by soviet mine (yea it's annoying when 30 muni blocks your passage thru ice)


What you think about it?

-Problems with flames crits. IDK how the hell you expect to fix that since it seems you need to change the whole system rather than just some aspects of it.

-Abandoned vehicle: it should go with an inmobilize/heavy engine damage state. I think that is "easier" to code. But in that case most of the time you wont see any vehicle stolen.

-Ice: meh. I´ll say it would be better to make Teller mines more reliable so both parties have the strategic possibility of using them.

all are great ideas, i think the solution for ram is reworking it to only crew shock 100% of the times for like 8 seconds

-Problems with flames crits. IDK how the hell you expect to fix that since it seems you need to change the whole system rather than just some aspects of it.

id be fine with removing all flame crits and it would be easy to do. set the weight of flame crits to 0 in each infantry ebps file. then buff the dps to compensate flame weapons. RNG gone. removing crits from only molotovs would be more difficult i think. might involve making a 5th damage type or something, but im sure relic could do that too if they really wanted.

examples:
solution: buff Ice , only bigger shells should one-shot tanks on ice and reduce/remove damage done to ice by all kind of infantry grenades and by soviet mine (yea it's annoying when 30 muni blocks your passage thru ice)

i really dont think ice is a problem. ive never liked the concept of mines on ice though. i know realism shouldnt be discussed in balance, but mines on ice dont really make sense. mines make sense being hidden in dirt/snow, but not on ice. i think if a mine is on ice, it should stay visible. this would help offset the fact that mines are much more potent on ice. a 30 munition mine is already extremely strong against tanks, but on the ice its a guaranteed kill.

Yup, just remove flame crits and just buff their normal damage.

Great post Barton.

I agree with you and I think that RAM should have less RNG and do some kind of "critical" depending if you hit front or rear (destroy main weapon, damage engine). Also RAM should cost ammo. That would make the use of RAM more wisely and not like everyone does when the T34 tank is close to get destroyed.

Another RNG to fix I think it should be the ISU-152. It's range and acuracy is madness. I would like to see recuced a bit it's range (same with Elephant), and the acuracy in far distances should be decreased. It's not good for COH2 to get wiped full squads from a far distance without having the chance to preserve units.

i really dont think ice is a problem. ive never liked the concept of mines on ice though. i know realism shouldnt be discussed in balance, but mines on ice dont really make sense. mines make sense being hidden in dirt/snow, but not on ice. i think if a mine is on ice, it should stay visible. this would help offset the fact that mines are much more potent on ice. a 30 munition mine is already extremely strong against tanks, but on the ice its a guaranteed kill.

Ice actually is a problem, it's good example of RNG, IS-2 ISU-152 will always kill enemy veh on ice with one shot, T34 will miss the target and hit the Ice to kill while Germans have only Sturmpanzer 4 to one-shot vehicle on Ice.

I agree that mines on Ice are nonsense but if Relic won't change that It would be better to have reduced damage done to Ice by mines.

4 DPS molotovs would be a complete joke. A grenadier would have to stand in the fire for 20 (19 if the first two seconds do 6 dps) seconds before he dies. I'm not 100% sure, but I think they don't even burn that long to begin with. It would also make molotovs 100% useless except for tickling (not killing, just tickling) MG42 crews.

Something like 40 impact damage at the center, 20 impact damage at the edge + 8dps fire damage would make more sense. This way it won't insta-crit units but it can still be used against assault-, panzer-, and normal grenadiers. It's a short range grenade with a slow and obvious animation, which also requires an upgrade. It should do damage when it hits.

With molotovs, I really sometimes think flame crits might be somehow broken. Maybe I just don't understand certain aspects of it, but from what I see in the files, a flame attack vs. a full health soldier has only a 5% chance to set him ablaze and another, also rather low, chance of 10% when the soldier is below 50% health. (simplified: 5-15% chance)

Now the much higher observed chance could be a consequence of the flame DoT ticking at the same time. Why not make the flame DoT just wait 0.5 to 1 second before it starts?

Or is something else going on with them?


Of course another possible fix would be removing the flame damage type from the original explosion. However, changing it to "explosion" would still have the 10% chance for them to die if they are (get?) below 50% health and the suspected double-tick would still exist.


Another possibility is changing the frequency with which the ground DoT ticks (but double the damage). If it is once per second currently, change it to once per two seconds. Combined with a slight delay to prevent the double-tick, this might also do the trick because it simply reduces the amount of dice rolls for the critical to tick in.


In general, I think using the same crit chance for DoT effects and one-time effects isn't exactly a good design decision but I guess now we're stuck with it.

4 DPS molotovs would be a complete joke. A grenadier would have to stand in the fire for 20 (19 if the first two seconds do 6 dps) seconds before he dies. I'm not 100% sure, but I think they don't even burn that long to begin with. It would also make molotovs 100% useless except for tickling (not killing, just tickling) MG42 crews.

Something like 40 impact damage at the center, 20 impact damage at the edge + 8dps fire damage would make more sense. This way it won't insta-crit units but it can still be used against assault-, panzer-, and normal grenadiers. It's a short range grenade with a slow and obvious animation, which also requires an upgrade. It should do damage when it hits.

i just gave example, I know that 4 DPS is low.

all are great ideas, i think the solution for ram is reworking it to only crew shock 100% of the times for like 8 seconds

You sacrifice a unit for a 8 second of stun? Great idea...

examples:
5) Ice - I've seen replay where Tiger Ace gets sunk by molotov (lol wut?)
What you think about it?

You can do this with engi flames too.

Another RNG to fix I think it should be the ISU-152. It's range and acuracy is madness. I would like to see recuced a bit it's range (same with Elephant), and the acuracy in far distances should be decreased. It's not good for COH2 to get wiped full squads from a far distance without having the chance to preserve units.

Totally agree.

You sacrifice a unit for a 8 second of stun? Great idea...

But to sacrafice a unit that will die anyway to destroy the engine AND main weapon of e.g. a Panther so it can be taken out by anything else is a great idea?

The thing with ram is it is the only thing allowing soviets who go for T3 to take out larger tanks. So unless you can figure out another way for T1-T3 soviets to take out Tigers and panthers ram isn't going anywhere.

build t2 instead of t1. problem solved. if you build the two tiers that have the worst AT, you should expect to have problems with heavy tanks.

Make Ram purchasable or strictly doctrinal.

T1-t3 isn't the smartest sov build. At guns do wonders with t34s

The thing with ram is it is the only thing allowing soviets who go for T3 to take out larger tanks. So unless you can figure out another way for T1-T3 soviets to take out Tigers and panthers ram isn't going anywhere.

I would like to see a discount on MP/Fuel on T1/T2 and T3/T4 once you get one of them. Meaning that someone who has gone T1 has easier chances of fielding T2 or T3 and then going T4. I think reducing by half the first 2 tiers and a third the last 2 would help fielding a more variety Soviet army.

40+50+90+90 = 270 "New system": 40+25+90+30 = 185 (+5 if you go T2 first)
15+25+35+25+55+25 (correct me here if m wrong, specially on the T3/T4 cost) = 180

Edit: if the cost for OS is higher, then just make both T1/T2 and T3/T4 get its fuel discounted to half in that way i think the fuel cost would be similar for fielding all tiers for both factions.

all are great ideas, i think the solution for ram is reworking it to only crew shock 100% of the times for like 8 seconds

I just joined these forums because I had to support this. IMO it is by far the most elegant and viable ram re-work.

I would further supplement this by adding a soft RNG to the stun time and damage dealt on impact just to stick to the spirit of COH's unpredictability.

Here are some more reasons to support this proposed change:
1. It removes one of the worst high-risk high-reward abilities from the game. As has been pointed out before, high-risk high-reward abilities on their own are bad enough since their impact won't always even out over the course of a game.

Add that this particular ability requires little to no skill to pull off and you're left with a lottery.

2. It promotes combined arms play After a successful ram, other units need to be around to take advantage of the stun, it is otherwise useless. Skill will take precedence over RNG since the positioning of supporting units will be more important than the dice roll.

3. It is likely easy to implement. There are no new abilities to add so no new code, just values to tweak.