Shocktroops at 1CP
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17 Dec 2013, 23:31 PM
#61
Posts: 37
shocks definitely have there place, there not the be all terminator squads there made out to be, but they make ur opponent pay for being out of position and flanking squads best on mgs and mortars clearing them out
18 Dec 2013, 00:03 AM
#62
6 
Posts: 600
Wow I completely disagree with the OP. Shocks are horrible for their cost. I just hard-counter them with LMG grens and a sniper. I always laugh when I see shocks.
Show us a replay of your games oh mighty lnk0!!! Teach us how to counter early shocks
18 Dec 2013, 00:15 AM
#63
Posts: 1439
I don't think I have problems with Shocks in general and therefore I can't tell if they come to early or not. If anything I would say German T1 is actually stronger than it was pre patch so in theory it should be easier to deal with them.
I can see multiple squads being a problem in team games but we are talking 1v1 here right?
I can see multiple squads being a problem in team games but we are talking 1v1 here right?
18 Dec 2013, 01:41 AM
#64
Posts: 32
Shock Troops can be countered. I know because I've played them since day 1. .
we all played them since day 1 we arnt talking about that we are talking about since the cp system change they come out 2 early its a fact only soviet fanboys cant see this a lmg gren squad is not a hard counter to shock troops even when veted they can only kill like 2 models before being forced to retreat
18 Dec 2013, 01:52 AM
#65
Posts: 37
we all played them since day 1 we arnt talking about that we are talking about since the cp system change they come out 2 early its a fact only soviet fanboys cant see this a lmg gren squad is not a hard counter to shock troops even when veted they can only kill like 2 models before being forced to retreat
this has nothing to do with anything but damn thats how i feel vs pgrens except no moddles are lost lol
18 Dec 2013, 02:05 AM
#66
Posts: 32
you feel p grens come out 2 soon ?
18 Dec 2013, 03:01 AM
#67
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
this has nothing to do with anything but damn thats how i feel vs pgrens except no moddles are lost lol
I also don't understand this. Are you saying PG's are too good and have no hard counters when they come out? You are aware Penals with flames do a good job against them and maxims just straight out stop them. Snipers bleed them dry extremely quickly. In addition, they came out at approximately the same time as shocks before. They only came out early if a German completely forgoes T1, at which point you should expect them and get snipers (or maxims if you already have T2).
Also I just played some more and in every team game I played shocks and guards were deployed as the third units. This was extremely hard to counter. I tried mg's, snipers, and grens. Ultimately without a Flame HT I had no way to slow this down, and that took too long forcing me to give up all of the map. In addition, a single mine or conscript nade would force the HT off.
What was the logic behind making elite troops come out sooner?
18 Dec 2013, 03:43 AM
#68
Posts: 337
Show us a replay of your games oh mighty lnk0!!! Teach us how to counter early shocks
I would if good players actually used shocks in 1v1. People don't use shocks because they are just sniper food.
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18 Dec 2013, 04:12 AM
#69
Posts: 37
I also don't understand this. Are you saying PG's are too good and have no hard counters when they come out? You are aware Penals with flames do a good job against them and maxims just straight out stop them. Snipers bleed them dry extremely quickly. In addition, they came out at approximately the same time as shocks before. They only came out early if a German completely forgoes T1, at which point you should expect them and get snipers (or maxims if you already have T2).
Also I just played some more and in every team game I played shocks and guards were deployed as the third units. This was extremely hard to counter. I tried mg's, snipers, and grens. Ultimately without a Flame HT I had no way to slow this down, and that took too long forcing me to give up all of the map. In addition, a single mine or conscript nade would force the HT off.
What was the logic behind making elite troops come out sooner?
eh calm ur shit down, i said in the OP this has nothing to do with anything IE im not saying there OP or come out to too early like the OP or i would have said so, what i am saying is its annoying when you get floored by a PGrens squad!
18 Dec 2013, 06:20 AM
#70
Posts: 688
I would if good players actually used shocks in 1v1. People don't use shocks because they are just sniper food.
There's actually a point there. I don't remember seeing many - if any - shocks in the SNF tourney.
If high level players don't use them, surely they aren't that good?
'There's honour in victory, honour in defeat and honour in just staying alive'.
[Quote from Wings Reel]
[Quote from Wings Reel]
18 Dec 2013, 08:17 AM
#71
Posts: 747
Well this isn't about 1v1 only. As others mentioned before, in 2v2 the combo of early shocks with early guards is extremely powerful and totally changes 2v2 gameplay.
@link0, we all know you are a super pro player and everything but from a gameplay point of view, do you really like elite infantry appearing only few minutes into the game?
I for myself don't for the reason Ciez stated before in this thread.
@link0, we all know you are a super pro player and everything but from a gameplay point of view, do you really like elite infantry appearing only few minutes into the game?
I for myself don't for the reason Ciez stated before in this thread.
18 Dec 2013, 08:41 AM
#72
Posts: 1003
Well this isn't about 1v1 only. As others mentioned before, in 2v2 the combo of early shocks with early guards is extremely powerful and totally changes 2v2 gameplay.
@link0, we all know you are a super pro player and everything but from a gameplay point of view, do you really like elite infantry appearing only few minutes into the game?
I for myself don't for the reason Ciez stated before in this thread.
Try G43, sniper, mortar and pak. Now this combo is awesome.
link0 is one of the best players and he play both side
Early elite infantry is fault. The same early G43, Panthers and Tiger Ace.
I want to have the same chance, to win for each side.
18 Dec 2013, 13:08 PM
#73
Posts: 93
Both Shocktroops and Guards at 1 CP do change the early game significantly, especially if you also factor in the increased starting resources. I guess Relic wants a more diversified and faster-paced early game. This is further amplified in larger team games.
Since the latest patch I've experimented with new builds on both sides in order to take advantage of these changes and they seem to work well so far. My OH build now includes 2 early snipers and my SU build includes shock troops and an early mortar (either doctrinal or not). Pretty different for what worked pre-patch. And I kinda like it.
Since the latest patch I've experimented with new builds on both sides in order to take advantage of these changes and they seem to work well so far. My OH build now includes 2 early snipers and my SU build includes shock troops and an early mortar (either doctrinal or not). Pretty different for what worked pre-patch. And I kinda like it.
18 Dec 2013, 14:00 PM
#74
Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4
There's actually a point there. I don't remember seeing many - if any - shocks in the SNF tourney.
If high level players don't use them, surely they aren't that good?
Twister has used Shocks before in SNF matches, and against other highly skilled players in matches cast by Dane. He makes very good use of them - and Twister is actually way better than his statistics would imply - he just doesn't play much CoH2.
Barton has also used them in SNF, even before this patch, although he lost to a flame HT - I believe this was in some matches against OMGPOP?
Anyways, they're definitely viable at all levels of play. The main problem is that Guards are just SO good. Guards already perform well enough against infantry (being able to beat any German squad given a proper Grenade throw), demolish light vehicles, and are extremely effective against tanks. I personally can't justify getting Shocks in a 1v1 because Guards are just too OP. But they definitely have their place. (Not coming at 1 CP though
)
18 Dec 2013, 15:17 PM
#75
Posts: 24
This topic reminds me of what happened when AssGrens were first introduced. You cant deal with them without teching, so Soviets need to adapt each time they see them.
I think this is similar to early Shock problem. You cant expect to counter early shocks with standard 4-5 gren opening, the same way as Soviets can deal with AssGrens using 4-5 cons start.
One good thing from that change is that it makes dealing with AssGren spam easier.
I think this is similar to early Shock problem. You cant expect to counter early shocks with standard 4-5 gren opening, the same way as Soviets can deal with AssGrens using 4-5 cons start.
One good thing from that change is that it makes dealing with AssGren spam easier.
18 Dec 2013, 16:02 PM
#76
Posts: 22
Then maybe Guards are too strong...not Shocks. You have to view it from a 1v1 perspective to start with when balancing. Shocks at 1CP in 1v1 is fine.
Guards is an entirely different subject, let alone Guards+Shock combo.
Guards is an entirely different subject, let alone Guards+Shock combo.
18 Dec 2013, 17:04 PM
#77
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
Then maybe Guards are too strong...not Shocks. You have to view it from a 1v1 perspective to start with when balancing. Shocks at 1CP in 1v1 is fine.
Guards is an entirely different subject, let alone Guards+Shock combo.
I agree that balance for this game comes at 1v1, but I am unsure at what point people were complaining that shocks were not effective enough at 1 CP (now 2). It is also unfair to say since it does not matter in 1v1, we can allow it to proceed. Opel blitz was good in 1v1, but completely ridiculous in team games. Shocks and guards in team games right now are almost game breaking. We cannot perfectly balance 1v1 and sacrifice all the other game types.
18 Dec 2013, 18:04 PM
#78
Posts: 747
Then maybe Guards are too strong...not Shocks. You have to view it from a 1v1 perspective to start with when balancing. Shocks at 1CP in 1v1 is fine.
Guards is an entirely different subject, let alone Guards+Shock combo.
Only because you think the 1cp change doesn't affect 1v1 as hard, does not justify it breaking 2v2 balance, especially since it is an absolutely unneeded change.
18 Dec 2013, 23:40 PM
#79
2 
Posts: 2181
Maybe remove the XP gain from completing buildings? Right now finishing T2 as Soviets gives almost .5 cp already.
18 Dec 2013, 23:47 PM
#80
Posts: 337
I don't have a problem with guards and shocks being available earlier in the game. They are well balanced by their price, so it's all good. I would actually love to see more shocks being used because I hardly ever see them. The diversity would spice things up.
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