Shocktroops at 1CP

The problem I have with the early game atm:

German player: You need a combination of MG42 and supporting Grens. Those need to be all in one area to support each other. If shocks flank you, you need to retreat everything. This can even happen when running frontally into the MG42. Just pop smoke and throw in the Russian blob.

Soviet player: Choose a doctrine with PPSH + Shocks --> left klick + right klick --> profit

Russians just run around capping the map. PPSHs can all shoot while running which is imo the biggest advantage.

The problem I have with the early game atm:

German player: You need a combination of MG42 and supporting Grens. Those need to be all in one area to support each other. If shocks flank you, you need to retreat everything.

Soviet player: Choose a doctrine with PPSH + Shocks --> left klick + right klick --> profit

That looks extremely similar to vCoH wehr vs ami BAR rifle matchup that was fine for past 7 years...

All that will change when shocks will be at 2CP is instead of 3 con shock we will be back at 5 con shock strat.

That looks extremely similar to vCoH wehr vs ami BAR rifle matchup that was fine for past 7 years...

Not really. Riflesquads were verry quickly supressed by MGs and cower was more important, so running arround in the open was at least a bit more costly.

Not really. Riflesquads were verry quickly supressed by MGs and cower was more important, so running arround in the open was at least a bit more costly.

Rifles also very quickly recovered as soon as you stopped shooting at them.
Cons shake in horror for 20 more seconds.

Cover was more important only because we didn't had automatic weapons in 3rd minute of the game, which both factions now have and still the one in better cover wins.

Katitof just for the record there are at least two bugs with the Ost sniper. The attack move problem and the fact that the stun round does not stun shocks (which IMO is pretty big deal).

Also we definitely had automatic weapons in COH1 at minute 1: Mg42's, Amer. 0.303, Brit bunker (depending on build order). These were all automatic weapons (excluding the Mp40, and Grease gun, Jeep, and bike) which were available as the game started.

Shocks (and guards) at 1cp are still bad for gameplay. Gustav has a number of excellent points why that is the problem on the previous page, and I agree with him that call in tanks could be backed up in cp's. Maybe not as high as 12, but they should definitely go back.

I want good early infantry micro to matter in this game.

I want interesting and variable gameplay and that's why I am for Shocks at 1CP. From my own example I know they are L2P issue and nothing more. They're superb infantry but they cost almost double the prise of regular squad. German T1 got anything you need to counter them and more and you can fast tech T2 to punish Shock spammers.
Guards should be moved back to CP2 unless some other solution will be used to delay thier anti vehicle capabilities. Relic could change them so you have to buy these anti tank rifles for example but CP cost increase will be easier and faster I think.

i think it would be an interesting thought to make shocks 1cp (while giving them a bit of Nerf) then guards go at 2 cp due to there abilty to counter all light vehicles.

that said its much easier to make them 2 cp each but im not convinced thats better for the game or gameplay.

i think it would be an interesting thought to make shocks 1cp (while giving them a bit of Nerf) then guards go at 2 cp due to there abilty to counter all light vehicles.

that said its much easier to make them 2 cp each but im not convinced thats better for the game or gameplay.

You see shocks, you go for FHT.
You see guards, you go for PZGs.
Now germans have to respond to what soviet does instead of the other way around.

The problem is the spam artillery + infantry right now, running all the map...

And they cry by the tiger ace, that have not killed all time by this poor strategy...

But infantry need for speed shooting all and plus artillery (3,4,5,6) in the back is fine?!

Lost the count of times that i thrown a grenade and just 1 die in the god artillery of the sovs... Put some shock's with it and is a problem...

I call tiger ace to it... Shock's is OP (because they run into you and kiss you with no problem) and the artillery too (they kill all easy and fast, not the tiger)...

Katitof just for the record there are at least two bugs with the Ost sniper. The attack move problem and the fact that the stun round does not stun shocks (which IMO is pretty big deal).

Also we definitely had automatic weapons in COH1 at minute 1: Mg42's, Amer. 0.303, Brit bunker (depending on build order). These were all automatic weapons (excluding the Mp40, and Grease gun, Jeep, and bike) which were available as the game started.

Shocks (and guards) at 1cp are still bad for gameplay. Gustav has a number of excellent points why that is the problem on the previous page, and I agree with him that call in tanks could be backed up in cp's. Maybe not as high as 12, but they should definitely go back.

I want good early infantry micro to matter in this game.

The sniper stun round isn't suppose to stop shocks. Which makes the sniper even less of a hard counter to shocks, but this I don't mind. I have seen a sniper incendiary round bug out a few times against cons though.

@kaitlof.... I hate to be an asshole but you really haven't played enough games as either faction to have a good grasp on balancing issues. Hell you thought link0 never played lol. I don't even keep track of high rank players and I knew that. Barely over 100 games isn't much my friend. Especially because you haven't quite hit that level of being teamed up or against top tier players.

Do CieZ count? I've got him in 2v2. Didn't win thou
In regards to link0, I wasn't paying attention to who I was responding to, but what was I responding to. Don't know how he does play soviets, but when I'm using M3 I usually keep cons before M3, not behind it.

The problem is the spam artillery + infantry right now, running all the map...

And they cry by the tiger ace, that have not killed all time by this poor strategy...

But infantry need for speed shooting all and plus artillery (3,4,5,6) in the back is fine?!

Lost the count of times that i thrown a grenade and just 1 die in the god artillery of the sovs... Put some shock's with it and is a problem...

I call tiger ace to it... Shock's is OP (because they run into you and kiss you with no problem) and the artillery too (they kill all easy and fast, not the tiger)...

What game are you playing where soviets can build 6 (SIX!) artillery pieces and bomb the hell out of you?

Rifles also very quickly recovered as soon as you stopped shooting at them.
Cons shake in horror for 20 more seconds.

Cover was more important only because we didn't had automatic weapons in 3rd minute of the game, which both factions now have and still the one in better cover wins.

Wether conscripts stay supressed is totally irrelevant concerning wether or not his example was "extremely similar to vCoH". I find your response verry revealing though.

We have discussed the damage received by small arms several times on this forum and though I dont have the stats at hand im quite sure that the reason for the less importance of cower isnt the time at wich automatic weapons are introduced, but the overal tuning and design of the game.

That looks extremely similar to vCoH wehr vs ami BAR rifle matchup that was fine for past 7 years...

If it took 60 fuel to unlock Shock troops or PPSH's, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Early game flanking behavior with Rifle squads was not like Shock heavy strats in CoH2, not even close.

What game are you playing where soviets can build 6 (SIX!) artillery pieces and bomb the hell out of you?

Yes, its true, make a cemetery of artillery with tiger ace lol! No joke...

For anyone who still doesn't know how to deal with shocks

http://www.coh2.org/news/13446/sunday-night-fights-s05e11-recap

The problem I have with the early game atm:

German player: You need a combination of MG42 and supporting Grens. Those need to be all in one area to support each other. If shocks flank you, you need to retreat everything. This can even happen when running frontally into the MG42. Just pop smoke and throw in the Russian blob.

Soviet player: Choose a doctrine with PPSH + Shocks --> left klick + right klick --> profit

Russians just run around capping the map. PPSHs can all shoot while running which is imo the biggest advantage.

This is down right hilarious because German players cry that for 5-10 minutes they need to go with a "combined arms" approach in order to have supporting units around to deal with the games most expensive infantry unit. Yet as soon as tanks hit the field soviets have to do the exact same thing but versus tanks that aren't even the most extra expensive one yet then Germans take the l2p approach.

Just to spell it out for you mid/late game:

Soviets: need to have a combination of zis guns, consrcipts, su85s, t34s, and mines to support each other. These need to all be in the same area to support each other. If a panther (or tiger) flanks you you have to retreat out often losing a lot of units because they can't just retreat in god mode like infantry. The German player can do this frontally just by blowing smoke canisters, or using the vin diesel nos button

German: pick doctrine with tiger (luckily everyone gets panthers) --> left click --> right click --> profit

So realistically what's "worse" ... Being forced to play well for tgr first 5 or 10 minutes or the rest of the game? Personally I prefer the challenge later which is why I prefer soviets

This is down right hilarious because German players cry that for 5-10 minutes they need to go with a "combined arms" approach in order to have supporting units around to deal with the games most expensive infantry unit. Yet as soon as tanks hit the field soviets have to do the exact same thing but versus tanks that aren't even the most extra expensive one yet then Germans take the l2p approach.

Just to spell it out for you mid/late game:

Soviets: need to have a combination of zis guns, consrcipts, su85s, t34s, and mines to support each other. These need to all be in the same area to support each other. If a panther (or tiger) flanks you you have to retreat out often losing a lot of units because they can't just retreat in god mode like infantry. The German player can do this frontally just by blowing smoke canisters, or using the vin diesel nos button

German: pick doctrine with tiger (luckily everyone gets panthers) --> left click --> right click --> profit

So realistically what's "worse" ... Being forced to play well for tgr first 5 or 10 minutes or the rest of the game? Personally I prefer the challenge later which is why I prefer soviets

If you exploit your advantage early game you wont need to play mid-late game! L2P!!!
:Uses smoke canister and blitz away:

As said before, the easiest solution is putting back Elite Infantry at 2 CP. Nevertheless i think that with some light nerf on Shocks (or a general small buff on rifles weapons) and just putting Guards at 2CP, Shocks could be fine at 1CP.

Buffing rifle damage would be a-ok with me because that would also help mitigate the pgren problem

This is down right hilarious because German players cry that for 5-10 minutes they need to go with a "combined arms" approach in order to have supporting units around to deal with the games most expensive infantry unit. Yet as soon as tanks hit the field soviets have to do the exact same thing but versus tanks that aren't even the most extra expensive one yet then Germans take the l2p approach.

Just to spell it out for you mid/late game:

Soviets: need to have a combination of zis guns, consrcipts, su85s, t34s, and mines to support each other. These need to all be in the same area to support each other. If a panther (or tiger) flanks you you have to retreat out often losing a lot of units because they can't just retreat in god mode like infantry. The German player can do this frontally just by blowing smoke canisters, or using the vin diesel nos button

German: pick doctrine with tiger (luckily everyone gets panthers) --> left click --> right click --> profit

So realistically what's "worse" ... Being forced to play well for tgr first 5 or 10 minutes or the rest of the game? Personally I prefer the challenge later which is why I prefer soviets

I could follow that logic if Panthers were able to cap the whole map (like Shocks) and Shocktroops could receive engine/ leg damage (like the Panther). As it stands Russians have it a lot easier.