MG 42 The Most Useless Unit In The Game

the most worst thing is, when a conscript squad oraaahhhs straight into you firing MG42... throwing a molotov and retreats.
Byebye flank or locking down areas

Yeah, or when Maxim gets rifle naded by a Grenadier squad while being under Maxim's fire. Oh wait...

Yeah, or when Maxim gets rifle naded by a Grenadier squad while being under Maxim's fire. Oh wait...

Pack up time is lower though for the maxim and the rifle nade takes longer to fly than the molotov. With 6 models + merge, it's relatively easy to dodge.

Pack up time is lower though for the maxim and the rifle nade takes longer to fly than the molotov. With 6 models + merge, it's relatively easy to dodge.

This. Very much this. Lets be serious here.

As Sov NOBODY even bothers to move from a RNade. Nobody. People deliberately sit and take the Rnade to the face.
Especially Maxims that really could atleast use their faster desetup and move a bit to avoid a direct hit.

It doesnt telegraph itself as obviously as a Con moving into Molotov range and can situationally be fired from out of Sovs LoS, but personally I find it much more powerful to close with a Con, start Molotov, and the nsimply cancel it when the unit moves, especially against LMG Grens and even MG42s. You dont even end up spending the Muni to cause the desetup. And if they dont move? Then just let it finish and watch 1-2 guys instaroast.

Not to mention how utterly shit RNades are vs very early garrisons now. You need about 3 RNades to force a building degarrison, and even that probably wont kill the unit. Thats just to empty it. Random building collapse was shit, and needed to be fixed, but RNades need more consistent effect in terms of MP bleed vs garrisons.

TLDR:Nobody even BOTHERS to dodge RNades. Yes, Molotov is more obvious, but you can also cancel it more immediately. With the RNade you are either left cursing that the unit moves dueing its long parabolic arc (in the few cases Sov bothers to move) and then again that even though your RNade hits the ie:Maxim, it STILL hasnt moved. Sure it takes some MP bleed, but its still sitting pretty doing its suppression thing. It doesnt even care. Couple models lost, so what. Imastayhere and still control this point.

Maybe its because the animation of a molotov is much more obvious and noticeable so it's really hard to miss in a heat of a fight while rifle nade is just one of the Grenadiers kneeling for a while.
Also you don't have to be near the enemy to rifle nade it. With molotovs you only need to watch the squad near you.

Pack up time is lower though for the maxim and the rifle nade takes longer to fly than the molotov. With 6 models + merge, it's relatively easy to dodge.

Same goes for molotov isn't? I know MG42s pack up time is longer than Maxims but Molotov's animation is longer as well.

TLDR:Nobody even BOTHERS to dodge RNades. Yes, Molotov is more obvious, but you can also cancel it more immediately. With the RNade you are either left cursing that the unit moves dueing its long parabolic arc (in the few cases Sov bothers to move) and then again that even though your RNade hits the ie:Maxim, it STILL hasnt moved. Sure it takes some MP bleed, but its still sitting pretty doing its suppression thing. It doesnt even care. Couple models lost, so what. Imastayhere and still control this point.

no one bothers dodging rnades because with the input lag it's pretty much useless to try, you may get a little less damage if you're lucky but you lose the equivalent in dps from moving. (unless you are expecting the rnade and move as soon as the gren kneels)
I don't think the issue lies in comparing rnade to molotov, they do different things.
they don't affect the cons/grens engagements as much as molotovs since a decent sov player will simply fight grens at close range
btw I've had great success recently countering garrisons with the ost mortar, it works wonders, but still, once the unit leaves garrisons you're left with the cons/grens engagement with one less gren squad.
decreasing lmg setup time would be a good thing

Molotov's animation is longer as well.

No. It isnt.

Ahaha, good point Nullist.

If the RNade was more potent than it is now, its certainly worth dodging but atm, it's not even required to dodge.

That and the MP system means the loss of MP isn't too great anyway.

no one bothers dodging rnades because with the input lag it's pretty much useless to try

Input lag doesnt stop Ost from having to attempt to dodge Molotov.
Sov just flat out dont bother, and then cry when sometimes the RNade hits a grouping hard.
Instead as Sov you sit and risk it in hope of knowing it may do very little, and in anycase, you have 2 models extra to spare compared to Ost for the same price.

You may get a little less damage if you're lucky but you lose the equivalent in dps from moving. (unless you are expecting the rnade and move as soon as the gren kneels)

Ost loses that DPS too, especially on LMGs where 1/4 of the unit is not firing on the move.
The Kneel is only part of the fire process. Its enough, and BETTER to move AFTER its beem fired, so as to waste the Muni expenditure. The projectile flight time is easily the equal to the detonation timer on Guard/PGren nades.
If people can and do dodge those, why the hell arent they dodging RNades. Answer is simple, becuase they sre not enough of a threat, especially with +2 model soak.

Currently Sov dont even bother. Who cares when you have +2 models cheaper models and can just soak it and keep on doing what you where doing before.

I don't think the issue lies in comparing rnade to molotov, they do different things.

Thats not accurate. Saying they do the same thing in different ways, is accurate. Which is exactly the way to start perceiving whether the ways they do that are up ro par, or not.

that's just all wrong...I'm done with being constructive, I'll just leave this thread and let you and the others start the name calling, have fun

Relic overnerfed the mg42. Weapon horizontal traverse speed from 60 to 25 and the received damage multiplier were a good thing, but together with the reduced suppression it is just to much.

On a side note: If you could choose the direction of fire in buildings preemtive (e.g. via attack ground command) i would be very happy.

I agree mg42 is pathetic now, and molotov is much much better than rifle nade - end

As to how to fix the MG42, its quite a dilemma.

There is the old specter of Mg42 instasuppression in recent memory(althoug some people conveniently forget Maxims extended period of the same). And it is frankly hilarious how many people STILL, even this far into balance, STILL think that MG42 Suppresses faster than Maxim. Its exactly the opposite.

Its the MAXIM that Suppresses faster. NOT the MG42.

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I think the most important thing to keep in mind, is the role of the MG42.
Its clearly slated as a wide backline infantry stopper in a defensive role, and secondarily as a relatively slow support for advances, in an offensive one.

I think its ok in that that secondary role.
Its the first one and primary one that leaves it lacking.

However, and these are two elephants in the room I have not seen addressed enough which are two additional central elements to HMGs. Bare with me and try to appreciate that these have been overlooked.

These are:

A) The overvaluing and relative redundancy of Pinning. Really, seriously, Pinning is currently a failed mechanic (except in a bug sense in Strafing Runs STILL persistant capacity to not only instapin, but also affect retreating unts occassionally.)

The ridiculous myth that MG42 suppresses faster than Maxim.
Seriously, at last, get it into your head, that Maxim Suppresses FASTER than MG42!
There is no excuse for overlooking that.
MG42 does PIN faster, but seriously, who gives a shit about Pin?
-It happens WAY after Suppression.
-Suppression is sufficient to almost completely cripple an infantry unit.
-Nobody has any practical reason to stay in Suppression for long enough for Pinning to matter. It just never happens excpt against someone whos micro has failed, and forgot the unit with their balls in the dirt.
-Even WHEN Pinning happens from HMGs, so what?

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B) The persistant 4 vs 6 man crew faction split.
This one is more complex, but needs serious attention, if not only because it affects the entire Support Weapon rosters.
Ive never understood this asymmetry.
It used to be 3 vs 6 man. Can you imagine, if you wherent there?
And when the issue was raised, people cried like stuck pigs against increasing the Ost Support crew. Thank the gaming Gods, Relics real balance crew (ie: not the Commander guy) took this to heart and made a mitigating change. I have said it before, and Ill say it again, the actual balance crew at Relic are VERY good.

BUT, is this asymmetry justified considering meta and balance changes?

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What makes this so complicated, is the diverse function of different Support weapons.

On PaK/ZiS, there is the issue of PaKs faster fire rate. But really, is that not answered by ZiS Native Barrage diversity?
Does Ost really need a crippled crew in relation? Especially when compared to Sov Armors general AI efficacy? I know there has been testing for a 3 Shot Barrage, and I support that . The full 6 shots, for cost, is a complete waste. I propose dropping the volley to 3, and also reducing the cost by half. I also however propose adding the same Barrage to Stugs, but that is for another topic.

On 81/82mm Mortar, again, Ost has better rate of fire, and Sov has a (stat guys halp!) better AoE. I dont honestly know about accuracy difference. Not on topic, but I think Sov Mortar may need a buff in comparison (Warning: Precision Strikes absolute accuracy. But since its for Muni, Im ok with that. Its Counter Barrage that sucks in comparison).
But again, shouldnt these two units be balanced according to their rate of fire, accuracy and AoE, NOT on unit size?

Then, finally, to MG42/Maxim. There are some myths surrounding these units.
1) Despite people claiming otherwise, the Maxim is the better suppressor. By near 1s. I can understand this, due to the narrower arc. It needs to be able to suppress what is in its narrower arc, faster.
2) By comparison, the MG42 has
-Better entity based DPS. Above Maxim DPS. Ost has to hit larger units, but because Maxim has less penetration vs Ost 1.5 armor, this gives MG42 a noticeable DPS lead. Infqct I think the MG42s DPS is too high compared to Maxims flat DPS.
---BUT, really, seriously, who gives a fuck about HMG DPS? They are there to Suppress, not DPS.
-MG42 Pins faster. But really, who cares? It takes so long to set in that a u it has either already retreated (+1s later than than from maxim) or already thrown its Molotov if close enough sue to the slower suppression.
3)No matter what anyone says, the MG42 is EASIER to counter than the Maxim, despite its arc. This is for four reasons
I) It Suppresses slower.
II) Oorah
III) Molotov FORCES a desetup, in addition to the following
IV) MG42 has only 4 men, making it 1/3 more vulnerable to everything.

Conclusions and practical suggestions for MG42:
-Make it Pin much faster. Almost as fast as Maxim Suppresses. Anything it fires at needs to get down, and stay down.
-Increase to 1.5 Armor wont help one bit vs Molotovs.
-Naturalise the Support Crews to 6 man, universally. Atleast that way the Crews can soak at the same rate, and asymmetry between Support crews can properly be aligned according to their function and stats related to their Support weapon.

Relic overnerfed the mg42. Weapon horizontal traverse speed from 60 to 25 and the received damage multiplier were a good thing, but together with the reduced suppression it is just to much.

On a side note: If you could choose the direction of fire in buildings preemtive (e.g. via attack ground command) i would be very happy.

Spot on. No one wants the old MG42 back which did not only insta surpress, but ALSO survived a flank pretty long. But all the nerfs together...

Not being able to chose direction in buildings bothered me already in the beta.

An maxium can depack and setup almost faster than the MG42 takes to rotate to the edge of his fire arc. With the fast setupuptime you could have the maxium unsetup as well, and just setup when you see enemys.

If not the individuall Surpression is buffed, atleast the aoesurpression should be.

Many players feel that it is really not worth the micro/time investment, if you could simply build another Gren. The Risk of a Stolen MG42 alone keeps me from building them. To much risk, not enough reliability. (Also unreliabal because sometimes they survive a whole molotov, sometimes they die instantly, sometimes they pin fast, sometimes slow.)


P.S. This is the 3th time we have this Thread, and the consens from the Pros is that it needs to be a bit stronger. @StgBulldog.

E

Expect mg42s back in the builds after the patch.

How. Why.

If you cant say, which you obviously cant due to NDA, then tbh stop posting here and instead deliver the feedback BACK from here to beta so it can be implemented there.

Your statement here means nothing. We dont know here at all what you are talking about, nor can we judge if it is good or not.

I have no reason to believe you that MG42 will be back, because you have no way to back that up publically.
You cant give reasons why it would be back, and we in return cant evaluate them.

Sorry, but this kind of posting just pisses me off. Either contribute in ways that others can argue, or keep that beta shit where it belongs, on the beta boards. You seem to have already accepted what beta has decided, which is shit, because on beta you should be questioning, challenging and testing everything to the last minute. Not being a "yes man" this is settled, no matter what the public says in its open forums.

IV) MG42 has only 4 men, making it 1/3 more vulnerable to everything.

Yet don't you always claim that the reason Sovs have shittier weaponry is to take into account the smaller squad sizes Sovs face? If that has truly been taken into overall balance, you can't also keep complaining about "smaller squad size, more vulnerable", barring maybe snipers (although even they have lower rate of fire to compensate).

However, I do agree that MG's could use a little love; just please, please don't return it to it's pre-nerf godliness. If a MG is shooting at you, you should be suppressed for the most part. I just wish units recovered from suppression quicker after it's done shooting. The threat is gone, get off the floor damnit!

Yet don't you always claim that the reason Sovs have shittier weaponry is to take into account the smaller squad sizes Sovs face? If that has truly been taken into overall balance, you can't also keep complaining about "smaller squad size, more vulnerable", barring maybe snipers (although even they have lower rate of fire to compensate).

You have misread me.

Zis has Barrage vs Ost fire rate.
Mortar has better AoE vs Ost fire rate.
Maxim has setup AND suppression vs Ost DPS
DPS? Who cares. Suppression is more important. Nobody sits in Suppression soaking DPS.
Pinning? Even more laughable. Nobosy hangs around for Pi pn to have time to effect.
Arc? Setup time is cstegorically superior to arc. With a shorter setup, you can not only get out faster but also resetup faster. MG42 positioning requirements are not rewarded enough.

The crew count comes in ONTOP of that, as an added free advantage for Sov.

On 81/82mm Mortar, again, Ost has better rate of fire, and Sov has a (stat guys halp!) better AoE. I dont honestly know about accuracy difference. Not on topic, but I think Sov Mortar may need a buff in comparison (Warning: Precision Strikes absolute accuracy. But since its for Muni, Im ok with that. Its Counter Barrage that sucks in comparison).
But again, shouldnt these two units be balanced according to their rate of fire, accuracy and AoE, NOT on unit size?

I believe that the German and Soviet 81/82mm mortars are identical in terms of damage/aoe/penetration/etc - the only difference being German fires more rapidly and has a 4 man squad. Soviet fires more slowly, but has a 6 man squad.

Overall the Soviet mortar generally performs significantly better. It is shooting at 4 man squads and as such has a stupid amount of potential to instantly kill a German squad. Vet 1 precision strike is pretty much a guaranteed de-crew of a German weapon team while counter-barrage is really pretty useless (it needs to increase range, or something).

Maxims are insanely overpowered in their current state and MG42s as terrible/borderline useless. Even outside of MG42s just being statistically awful at the moment, Molotovs pretty much force an instant retreat of an MG42 while a Maxim can soak 2-3 rifle grenades while suppressing three German squads from three different angles.

Don't even get me started on DShKs...

Also the fact that 6 man squads are so vastly superior to 4 man squads.

I believe that the German and Soviet 81/82mm mortars are identical in terms of damage/aoe/penetration/etc - the only difference being German fires more rapidly and has a 4 man squad. Soviet fires more slowly, but has a 6 man squad.

Overall the Soviet mortar generally performs significantly better. It is shooting at 4 man squads and as such has a stupid amount of potential to instantly kill a German squad. Vet 1 precision strike is pretty much a guaranteed de-crew of a German weapon team while counter-barrage is really pretty useless (it needs to increase range, or something).

Maxims are insanely overpowered in their current state and MG42s as terrible/borderline useless. Even outside of MG42s just being statistically awful at the moment, Molotovs pretty much force an instant retreat of an MG42 while a Maxim can soak 2-3 rifle grenades while suppressing three German squads from three different angles.

Don't even get me started on DShKs...

Also the fact that 6 man squads are so vastly superior to 4 man squads.

I agree completely.

Currently trying to double check 81/82mm stats, but the site is lagging. Brb on that one.

Also, review thread related to M3/222 (Future Balance thread).
If you remove your insults there, I will respond in a civil fashion.

Please, lets be gentlemen. I know you mean well and want the best for the game. Believe it or not, so do I. Lets drop the insults. We are better than that.

Edited to add: Yes, according to http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/team_weapons
(which btw still has many stats misaligned, so with a pinch of salt)
81mm has all the advantages, except for a difference in Trench penetration.

In terms of the crew differential, Mortars are the one unit I think that 6man is ok on, because of the Mortar-minigame where they invariably end up fighting each other more than anything else. Particularly when Vet, where Sov will absolutely nuke an immobile 81mm, whereas the Counter-Barrage doesnt stand a chance. Up and until V1, its a Ost advantage in terms of output (but the 82mm can soak 2 more model kills). After that, the 82mm is in a position to immediately nuke the 81 equivalent.

It indeed needs a suppression buff, and perhaps a rotation increase. Bottom line is, a conscript squad should never be able to OOrah from the front of an MG and be able to molotov. It's infrequent, but it does happen, especially if there's patch of yellow cover on the way. And it quite simply shouldn't. Apart from that, it's still a useful unit and a core part of my German builds. Just never, ever leave it alone and it will stop even shock troops dead in their tracks, something grens can never do. And at 4 men, it's still far more survivable than ye old vCOH MG42.

About riflenades against Maxims, I've had very conflicting experiences; sometimes the grenade barely hurts the squad despite landing straight on their faces, other times I've had a 5-men Maxim crew wiped out in one hit. The damn thing is just way too RNG-based. But the idea that anything short of shock troops, and even then, can happily eat riflenades is just wrong. Even losing 2 models on a conscript squad guarantees defeat in a 1v1 vs grens.