How to nerf blobing WITHOUT punishing individual squads

I make this post in reaction to seeing a certain other thread and also plenty of ideas and comments under streamers and youtubers

Basically, people always have plenty of suggestions that would indeed do away with the "9/10 matches are a blobfest" thing, but also absolutely garden the experience for people who play properly

I'll give a few examples:

- TTk increase: Double edged sword. Kill blobs faster, but also you are essentially no longer allowed to decap points near enemy base, dive with infantry, stay on field for extended periods of time, etc

- Stronger suppression/ MG buffs: This fucks over individual squads as well. Im sure we all still remember the cancer of having two squads on opposite edges of a 130° cone of fire get supressed at the same time

- Arty buffs: An almost inherently cancerous type of unit, and again, we all remember how BS good it was at wiping lone, moving units in CoH2

So, I'm hoping we can settle on some ideas that improve the situation but do so in a way that doesnt affect people who micro units individually and space them out properly

I'm hoping we can settle on some ideas that improve the situation but do so in a way that doesnt affect people who micro units individually and space them out properly

In my opinion, the best possible way would be as such: First, to implement actual hitscan weaponry. A soldier points their weapon at the enemy, the bullet travels instantly along a line from the muzzle of the gun to the enemy, with a small amount of scatter. From there, when it hits a model, there it does the calculations as to whether or not it's a hit or a miss. Additionally, I would want there to be a "reverse zeal" mechanic but where troops are easier to hit when clumped up together. Say 3 or more squads at least.

The reason why I think this would be best is that it makes sense. If the hitscan weapon misses the unit that it's aiming at, it's still likely to hit someone else, due to the fact that the models are so close together.

That would probably be too resource intensive, though.

Other ideas? Simply adding a "reverse zeal" mechanic where 3 or more squads within a certain range of each other share suppression and damage, maybe even lose accuracy, which increases/decreases moderately quickly depending on how many squads are in the vicinity.

I've always wanted MGs to work in this way:
When firing at a group of squads, any missed shot is then re-rolled and then fired at a squad closely adjacent to the squad the MG is firing at. In this way, blobs recieve way more damage from an MG.

I think that suppression in CoH 3 has its upsides and downsides. I can understand why Relic removed "lingering suppression" (I.E. suppressed squads fired upon by nearby squads stay suppressed), because, hot take, I think that suppression in CoH 3 is way more powerful than in CoH 2. Suppression makes squads waaaay slower. Painfully slow. I don't think that infantry squads should be able to keep suppressed squads suppressed indefinitely, but I do think that they should be able to prolong it, unlike how it is now where it does nothing.

I like the "Reverse Zeal" idea. I always felt that bunched up units should get some kind of negative modifier similar to the "negative cover" units had when they were standing in a road. Also maybe make friendly fire occur since some blobs pack the troops so close together.

- Stronger suppression/ MG buffs: This fucks over individual squads as well.

Not true, simply buff the AoE suppression multipliers while not touching the base suppression value

It's possible to make it so a blob of 3 or more squads gets red-pinned in 1 second while MG vs lone squads still performs the same like before

Hi, Rosbone here... you know... The Devils Advocate....

If Relic really is all in on making a console port, that would mean they developed the game to work the bad way it is now. And that would also mean, they will not be fixing this issue anytime soon if ever. What are the odds on this scenario? Asking for a friend.

Problem if blobing in CoH3 mostly comes from forward healing\reinforcement.

All factions have access to those units super early into the game, by 3-4min mark.

Auto-reinforcement, reduces player impact needed. Sure we can say that any decent player will be able to circle thro units and reinforce them, but mechanical auto-reinforce is still faster then any human input.

On top of that damage model of CoH3 is different to CoH1\2. In CoH3 squads are dealing cheap, but consistent damage, while in 1\2 it was the opposite. Meaning that more often then not, you can reinforce faster then your models get killed.

On top of that, as a matter of fact, CoH always had this discussions about "blobing" being wrong way to play the game. I honestly believe, that blobing is a viable strategy. If one player is blobing and you cant deal with it, it means that enemy simply has more unit concentration then you.

Why would you want to punish player, if he has numerical advantage over you? Sure you can introduce reverse zeal and why not, but isnt it easier to find a problem why its effective?

MGs in CoH3 are fully capable of stoping blobs, but they are almost worthless without support and out of cover (which is a good change from CoH1\2). But units get un-suppressed super fast, as well as they are still having survivability buffs from being suppressed (like in previous games). Maybe this can be ajusted?

As it is right now, first smart step would be, doing something with forward reinforcement.

Second step would be adjusting indirect fire units, because they were clearly balanced with the idea in mind, that they shouldn't wipe squads with lucky hits and rather deal more consistent non-lethal damage if the squad has full HP. Its a great change, but it also made them much more less effective against blobs.

Problem here is not the whole idea of blobing, but how its easy to sustain it and how counter measures for blobing being a bit lackluster.

Problem if blobing in CoH3 mostly comes from forward healing\reinforcement.

All factions have access to those units super early into the game, by 3-4min mark.

Auto-reinforcement, reduces player impact needed. Sure we can say that any decent player will be able to circle thro units and reinforce them, but mechanical auto-reinforce is still faster then any human input.

On top of that damage model of CoH3 is different to CoH1\2. In CoH3 squads are dealing cheap, but consistent damage, while in 1\2 it was the opposite. Meaning that more often then not, you can reinforce faster then your models get killed.

On top of that, as a matter of fact, CoH always had this discussions about "blobing" being wrong way to play the game. I honestly believe, that blobing is a viable strategy. If one player is blobing and you cant deal with it, it means that enemy simply has more unit concentration then you.

Why would you want to punish player, if he has numerical advantage over you? Sure you can introduce reverse zeal and why not, but isnt it easier to find a problem why its effective?

MGs in CoH3 are fully capable of stoping blobs, but they are almost worthless without support and out of cover (which is a good change from CoH1\2). But units get un-suppressed super fast, as well as they are still having survivability buffs from being suppressed (like in previous games). Maybe this can be ajusted?

As it is right now, first smart step would be, doing something with forward reinforcement.

Second step would be adjusting indirect fire units, because they were clearly balanced with the idea in mind, that they shouldn't wipe squads with lucky hits and rather deal more consistent non-lethal damage if the squad has full HP. Its a great change, but it also made them much more less effective against blobs.

Problem here is not the whole idea of blobing, but how its easy to sustain it and how counter measures for blobing being a bit lackluster.

Forward reinforcing units should probably get a penalty for reinforcing while in combat. Units in combat should also probably recover from suppression a bit slower as well.

I would argue that it is the "wrong way to play" but I agree it can be used as a valid tactic. The problem is the risk/reward ratio for blobbing almost always works out for the blobbers advantage.

The game sells itself as a combined arms tactical RTS with an elaborate directional cover system. Why bother doing any of the micro work of cover, spacing, and unit composition if the player that just blobs infantry to zerg around the map can easily win. If the blob picks a bad angle they can just back out, pop smoke, and approach from another angle very quickly.

I read a lot of mashing of teeth about auto-reinforce mechanic because it relieves some micro tax. However, blobbing with attack moving around the map removes much more micro compared to someone taking the time to space out their infantry, position their MGs, and build a mortar crew instead of just another infantry to add to the blob. I imagine players thinking with that extra infantry crew to the blob maybe we can even one volley a light vehicle if we add AT rifles.

Adding some kind of penalty or more effective counter would balance out the risk/reward toward the player using the combined arms cover based tactics which the game markets itself as IMO.

Why would you want to punish player, if he has numerical advantage over you? Sure you can introduce reverse zeal and why not, but isnt it easier to find a problem why its effective?

I think that it's just a better idea from a common sense perspective. Why did armies give up on standing in big lines and firing at each other? The introduction of rifles that can actually hit targets further than you can throw them. If you stand all your troops in a line, then even the enemy's miss can turn into a hit.

It's also why modern militaries space out their troops during marches where it's possible they will be attacked. The goal is to be spaced far enough so that a grenade's kill zone would only hit one soldier (obv it would injure more than one person b/c of shrapnel, but you get my point.)

You space out units because it makes them harder to hit. Therefore, blobs should be easier to hit. Very simple and common sense solution. If you're firing a machine gun at a literal human wall 30 meters away from you, it will take a miracle for you to miss any shot you take.

Again, my ideal solution is that missed shots have a large chance of being fired again at closely adjacent or overlapping squads, but who knows how resource intensive that could be. I'm not a programmer.

I'm just going to rehash the post again to make myself perfectly clear:

As I understand the ballistics system of CoH 2, that is, the lack of one, if you're not a tank, then you're pretty much just calculating the probability of one squad hitting another, and then applying damage and visual effects based on who the squad is "aiming" at.

This is a perfectly fine way of simulating squad vs. squad combat, but IMO it shows its flaws when we bring blobbing into the mix. After all, what is accuracy and recieved accuracy in CoH trying to simulate? It's simply whether or not the infantry squad firing on another squad hit the target it was aiming at or not. What happens to a bullet when it misses its target? It doesn't disappear after it passes by the person that was being fired at. It keeps going until it hits something. Whether that be the ground or something else (the three squads literally standing inside the one being fired upon).

Explosives don't work this way in CoH. They deal damage to any and all models inside the blast radius, even having the ability to kill an entire squad if they're within kissing distance (except for certain explosives that have caps on damage). That's why in previous games, they have been relied upon to counter blobbing.

However, in CoH 3, it is clear that the devs want to increase TTK and have nerfed mortars and explosives accordingly. If they don't want to have explosives destroy blobs, that's fine. It is now a perfect time to adjust the combat system instead; by making blobs easier to hit, or improving how ballistics are simulated, whether in real time or through simpler code.

I would argue that it is the "wrong way to play" but I agree it can be used as a valid tactic. The problem is the risk/reward ratio for blobbing almost always works out for the blobbers advantage.

The game sells itself as a combined arms tactical RTS with an elaborate directional cover system. Why bother doing any of the micro work of cover, spacing, and unit composition if the player that just blobs infantry to zerg around the map can easily win. If the blob picks a bad angle they can just back out, pop smoke, and approach from another angle very quickly.

I read a lot of mashing of teeth about auto-reinforce mechanic because it relieves some micro tax. However, blobbing with attack moving around the map removes much more micro compared to someone taking the time to space out their infantry, position their MGs, and build a mortar crew instead of just another infantry to add to the blob. I imagine players thinking with that extra infantry crew to the blob maybe we can even one volley a light vehicle if we add AT rifles.

Adding some kind of penalty or more effective counter would balance out the risk/reward toward the player using the combined arms cover based tactics which the game markets itself as IMO.

Simply directly punishing a certain way of playing the game rather than adressing the underlying issues is incredibly poor design. It would also feel super out of place in the context of how CoH works. I don't wanna have to keep a certain distance between my squads just for the sake of it when double teaming another squad for example. It would disrupt the gameplay flow. It's not rocket science to figure out why blobs are so prevalent in teamgames and adress these issues.

Here's some issues with solutions in brackets:

1. Forward reinforce (reduce HP on all med trucks to 240 at minimum, preferably 140. They should get one shot by tank destroyers and almost one shot by regular tanks. No autoreinforce on heal trucks. No reinforce or heal on non-friendly territory. Double the reinforcement time.)

2. Ubiquitous, cheap and super impactful Smoke (smoke no longer blocks LoS, now only decreases suppression or damage, increase cooldown or add cost for smoke abilities across the board)

3. Unreliable MGs (increase AoE suppression, i.e. a squad getting suppressed directly should reliably put suppression on squads nearby)

4. Terrible maps (have more maps like General Mud, Vaux Farmlands, 4v4 Arnhem and less maps like Redball, Ettelbrück, Kharkov; ironically a lot of people don't like more complex maps because they require brain activation but then you can't complain about bad gameplay)

5. VP tick rate forcing players to keep field presence for the entire game and therefore punishing dynamic attacking gameplay (keep 3-0 vp tick rate, slow down 2-1 VP tickrate)

6. Artillery access and potency (give US a Howitzer by default maybe as part of Infantry support center, look into the other artillery pieces and assess whether they could be tuned up a bit, I'm not sure about this because arty in CoH2 was obnoxiously strong)

Simply directly punishing a certain way of playing the game rather than adressing the underlying issues is incredibly poor design

I disagree. Again, from my posts on here, you can see that my suggestion just makes sense. The fact that the coh engine can only simulate squad vs. squad combat is a flaw in the design simply by itself. Blobbing would easily become a trash "way of playing the game" (as you put it) simply by rectifying this flaw.

There's no need to buff MGs, nerf smoke, forward reinforce, even include better maps if you simply address the underlying issue (again, as you put it), which is the fact that if CoH did a better job of simulating ballistics, or at least put some effort into approximating it, blobs would not be nearly as effective as they currently are.

I don't wanna have to keep a certain distance between my squads just for the sake of it when double teaming another squad for example

And why not? First off, the kind of thing I'm advocating for is squads literally inside each other being easier to hit. Second off, do you not already do this? I would be surprised if a player of your caliber doesn't already spread out their troops to reduce damage from explosives.

If so, your gameplay style wouldn't suffer from this at all anyways. If that isn't the case, it's a perfect example of why a change like this needs to happen. If even the top players are playing in such a manner, something is off.

If even the top players are playing in such a manner, something is off.

It has nothing to do with how effective or not blobs are.

Game has super early and super available forward reinforce, non of which were present in previous games. Aside from CoH2 USF ambulance, which is the fastest reinforcement unit up to date.

CoH3 economy encourages to get LVs and even rebuilding it, without hurting your economy that bad. At least in terms of fuel. In both CoH1\2 LVs were investment, which significantly delayed your tech, in CoH3 you can rebuild multiple healing units without hurting your economy over-all.

Loosing ambu\251 or M5 was a huge deal in CoH2, in CoH3 its a minor set back most of the time. It hurts your map presence more and MP, then your economy.

Because of the cheap damage units do (across the board, be it direct or the indirect damage) its impossible to outdamage reinforcements, let alone auto-reinforcements, most of the time. Which lead to a stalemate, which in return can be only broken by "big push big reward" gameplay, in which blobing usually the most effective tactic.

Even if you add some sort of "reverse zeal", it simply wont change anything, because the only counter to blobs in CoH3 - tanks, since they can one-shot bunched up models, everything else is basically soft-counters. Everything else is just aren't dealing sufficient damage, to punish bad play.

5. VP tick rate forcing players to keep field presence for the entire game and therefore punishing dynamic attacking gameplay (keep 3-0 vp tick rate, slow down 2-1 VP tickrate)

I am just trying to understand the whole thread idea. And I want to give Relic as much latitude as possible.

It seems as though the forward reinforce is in response to the faster tick rate. You cant retreat your army as often and still win games. You need forward reinforce.

And faster games means people can queue into games faster, etc. So in theory, the Relic design has good intentions. Maybe even makes sense. They could even be rewarded for trying something new.

Since they have not fixed the VP rate yet, this could be when John says "we want to let things cook a little and see how they play out". Maybe they are thinking about it, but waiting.

If this is the situation, and not that Relic is "dumbing down the game" for console players, some of these ideas seem pretty good to me. Hopefully relics "waiting" is not "we want to see how it plays out on console before fixing it". Because, that could be a long time from now. And I have the weird suspicion Relic knew blob wars would be the meta. Which leads me to think nothing is fixed until after the console release.

The slower Time To Kill (TTK) also helps units fall back from fights. To me this is a good idea to keep units on the front lines. I also like slower TTK so that bad internet is not the deciding factor. Top players are not happy about it, since, it negates cover and units are not punished when a superior play happens.

I like the ideas of:
- No auto reinforce on forward trucks.
- Slowed Reinforce in combat.
- No reinforce unless in owned territory.

And would also like to see:
- Inf suppressing after MG suppression like in Coh2. This rewards good micro on the MG and support infantry.
- Larger AOE for tanks, mortars, etc or more anti blob arty like Katy, Werfers, etc. This could help weaken blob health and your support infantry can pick off the weaker units, thereby punishing blobbing.
- Units taking more damage when retreating (as opposed to falling back).

Having the reinforce slowed and behind the lines would also encourage each player to have an MG to cover their ambulance. Again reinforcing strategy and forethought as opposed to blind zerg tactics. Push your units up to fight then draw them back under MG support to heal and attack again.

In time the TTK issue needs adjusted. I fear it would take Relic months to adjust all of the damage profiles, etc. So I dont expect to see it soon.

Stopping bitching about blob control units being potent vs single squads as well would be a first step.
Stubby stug, 105 sherman, wehr command P4/brummbar, that weird brit one from armored bg.

These do the job well, unless its AT blob.

Maybe make it so that if too many units are clumped together they can't utilise cover? Make it scale so that they lose access to green then yellow cover or vice-versa.

It has nothing to do with how effective or not blobs are.

Actually, it has everything to do with it. That is literally the title of this thread. The goal is to introduce methods for countering blobs WITHOUT punishing individual squads.

Even if you add some sort of "reverse zeal", it simply wont change anything, because the only counter to blobs in CoH3 - tanks, since they can one-shot bunched up models, everything else is basically soft-counters. Everything else is just aren't dealing sufficient damage, to punish bad play.

**YES** That is EXACTLY why I am trying to CHANGE. Everyone here seems to dead set in reviving the rocket arty and indirect meta WHEN THERE IS ANOTHER WAY.

I like the ideas of:
- No auto reinforce on forward trucks.
- Slowed Reinforce in combat.
- No reinforce unless in owned territory.

And would also like to see:
- Inf suppressing after MG suppression like in Coh2. This rewards good micro on the MG and support infantry.
- Larger AOE for tanks, mortars, etc or more anti blob arty like Katy, Werfers, etc. This could help weaken blob health and your support infantry can pick off the weaker units, thereby punishing blobbing.
- Units taking more damage when retreating (as opposed to falling back).

I agree with most of this, but again it falls short of addressing the topic of the thread, that being how to nerf blobbing without affecting players who play with individual squads.

(Def agree on no reinforce unless in owned territory and infantry squads causing lingering suppression on suppressed squads though)

In time the TTK issue needs adjusted. I fear it would take Relic months to adjust all of the damage profiles, etc. So I dont expect to see it soon.

fgsfds
Rosbone, wouldn't increasing received accuracy vs. clumped squads achieve this easily?

Stopping bitching about blob control units being potent vs single squads as well would be a first step.
Stubby stug, 105 sherman, wehr command P4/brummbar, that weird brit one from armored bg.

These do the job well, unless its AT blob.

Ok besides the fact that the 105 sherman is worthless to build in 4v4 because of how much it's outshined by literally the default sherman (and 76's) HE shells, you could say the exact same thing for CoH 2: "Oh well you know, the brummbar and the scott are perfectly fine at dealing with blobs, so we don't really need rocket artillery." Huh? Why do people advocate for giving the USF stock rocket artillery if they have the scott? Isn't that enough? Why does OST get the panzerwerfer? Isn't it unnecessary? Can't we just take it away?

Again, devs are moving away from rocket artillery and instawipe gameplay. This has brought back into scrutiny the glaring flaw with the CoH ballistics simulation; that being that there are no actual ballistics, it is only squad vs. squad combat in its current implementation.

Because of this, all you need is a simple numbers advantage to beat a squad. 2 is better than 1, right? Well not in warfare. You DON'T see modern militaries walking around in the fucking human meatball formation because it is retarded and any fire they draw will be WAY more likely to hit them. THAT IS WHY ARMIES SPREAD OUT THEIR UNITS. WE DON'T NEED TO KEEP REVIVING THE ROCKET ARTY AND INDIRECT META IF WE ACTUALLY DEAL WITH THE UNDERLYING CAUSE AND MAKE IT SO THAT BLOBS BECOME BIGGER TARGETS.

Listen, imagine you have a baseball, and you're standing in the middle of a field, with a wooden door 50 feet away from you. Your goal is to hit the wooden door. In fact, you can hit any wooden door, and it counts, if you hit the wooden door, you win! Now, is it easier to hit one wooden door standing in a field? Or a row of 6 doors standing next to each other in a big line?

I'm sure anyone here knows what the answer to that is.
Thank you for your time.

fgsfds
Rosbone, wouldn't increasing received accuracy vs. clumped squads achieve this easily?

I definitely think your idea has merit. I like the logic behind it.

Your original thought was to have a miss recalc. That is what I dont think will fly because it may be very CPU intensive in a game that is already CPU dependent. It would have to check every unit in front of your unit, then your unit, then every unit after the unit. Sorting that and doing calcs would be slow.

The easy button would be like you said increase RA for clumped units. Still a busy CPU calc defining "Clumped". But it is already done for other AURA effects right?

I definitely think your idea has merit. I like the logic behind it.

many thanks.

Your original thought was to have a miss recalc. That is what I dont think will fly because it may be very CPU intensive in a game that is already CPU dependent. It would have to check every unit in front of your unit, then your unit, then every unit after the unit. Sorting that and doing calcs would be slow.

Definitely, I'm not a programmer, but if there were some way to do that without making CPUs explode, I feel like that would be the best way besides giving the units actual hitscan weapons that can miss units but hit others in its path (though that would cause issues on its own and would probably change the way cover works).

The easy button would be like you said increase RA for clumped units. Still a busy CPU calc defining "Clumped". But it is already done for other AURA effects right?

Also a good point. In my imagination it could have to be something like the "standard-bearer" of the squad (the model that the squad flag sticks to) and their proximity to other "standard-bearers", and how many are within that range.

**YES** That is EXACTLY why I am trying to CHANGE. Everyone here seems to dead set in reviving the rocket arty and indirect meta WHEN THERE IS ANOTHER WAY.

Then why should any one try to invent bicycle? CoH3 has plenty of ways to reduce effectiveness of blobing, without trying to mess up inf gameplay (because they already tried in CoH1 and it didnt quite work).

1) Nerf reinforcement platforms.
2) Increase time required to be unsuppresed.
3) Make suppression degrade slower if units are under fire by other units
4) Increase damage of indirect units, without increasing wipe potential
5) Increase AOE suppression

Non of these changes arguably will affect single unit gameplay, yet will make blobs much less effective.