DAK Redesign

well done

Alright, having played around with the modding tools, I came up with a Proof of Concept that tackles 95% of the issues I had with the design of DAK: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2945495361

Features

HQ



The HQ hasn't really changed very much, partially because it didn't need to but also because the modding tools didn't really allow for it much in practice. The important thing to note is that T1 or T2 can be constructed right out of the gate, addressing my issue with the linearity.

T1



T1 has now 2 side tiers instead of 1. The first upgrade on the left unlocks the second column and the second upgrade unlocks the third column. After putting my ideas into practice, I swapped the flak halftrack and the Assault Grens in the tech tree. It just made more sense and having played around with it a bit, it plays well.

T2



T2 also has 2 side tiers, the first also unlocking the second column and the second unlocking the third column. The recovery HT is gone and I substituted the Carro Armato for the Puma, as it was the closest alterative for the POC. I also changed the stats of the Carro Armato making it fairly useless against infantry, so it feels basically like the Puma in Coh2 and fits the role I intended for it nicely. Relic would ideally use the real thing though. The other unit that saw changes was...

Panzergrenadiers



They now have the MP40 and MP43 upgrades. MP40s and MG34s were swapped from from original plan, MP40s get unlocked when any T1 side tech is purchased and MG34s come from any T2 side tech. The MP43s come with T3. This upgrade dichotomy adds another interesting dimension to the tech paths.

T3



T3 can be reached when any 2 side techs or any side tech and both T1 and T2 are purchased. This allows for up to 6 different tech paths to T3! Within T3 itself, the entire top row is unlocked immediately. I found in practice, locking the Stug behind the same tech as the Tiger made little sense. The first side tier upgrade unlocks the tiger and the second side tier upgrade unlocks the Stuka and Flak. One nice benefit of this setup is that directly teching Tiger is much cheaper, as you don't need to go through the deployments. Speaking of which...

Deployments



Within the armoury, I moved out all the upgrades to the respective tiers that unlock them, as this made more intuitive sense to me. I kept the grenades and 250 upgrade here, as well as adding an upgrade for base healing. This means you don't have to tech T1 to get heals or use the med truck. As for the deployments, all deployments are locked behind upgrades here, which is what he icons denote. For example, the assault gren icon unlocks the assault gren deployment. Once that is unlocked, you can upgrade the panzer 3 one below it and that will replace that deployment and only that one!



This means you can pick and choose which deployments you want with a lot more granularity. However, the mod tooling currently has a lot of limitations, so I was not able to edit the deployments. This means they still come with the 250, sadly, but presumably we can update this in the future. You're also not able to create new deployments, so the armoury is missing that middle row of deployment upgrades I detailed in my original plan. But for getting the idea across, this works!

Notes

In creating this MOD, I changed the following:

- Assault Grens and Panzerjägers can't repair anymore as I feel this was overkill.

- All upgrades that were in the armoury like grenades etc were reduced in manpower but now have a fuel cost, to balance things out and make teching yet more interesting.

Aside from these changes, I have not touched the balance, as this MOD is purely a POC for the redesign. None of the other factions were changed. Nor were the battlegroups touched.

Conclusion

After having modded my ideas, I'm fairly happy with the result! I addressed 95% of the issues I had with DAK and the remaining ones I couldn't change due to limitations with the MOD tooling. I feel this setup is outright superior to what we have now, it allows for significantly more tech paths, upgrade choices and also makes the Deployment system less of a standalone gimick but something tied into the tech tree nicely. All that remains is to hope Relic takes some inspiration! Give it a go and let me know your thoughts! If anyone has feedback or wants to play with me on it, shoot me a message!

Good work, it's very much commendable that you also put your ideas into practice because I've seen many on paper only.

Another suggestion I would give is to post this on the workshop officially as well to the public, you can gain some more feedback there and if a lot of people like it also maybe the attention of Relic also. Either way good luck with what you're doing, keep us posted.

I don't know why you want to reinvent the wheel with DAK, the faction design is more than viable atm, the problem is overall faction balance, giving DAK an option to counter LVs rush before getting a Rad and rebalancing PG to something relevant.
Then from Light tanks to heavy tank the Marder does the job of counter and the Pz3 once upgraded goes toes to toes with anything Allied faction can field.

I don't know why you want to reinvent the wheel with DAK, the faction design is more than viable atm, the problem is overall faction balance, giving DAK an option to counter LVs rush before getting a Rad and rebalancing PG to something relevant.
Then from Light tanks to heavy tank the Marder does the job of counter and the Pz3 once upgraded goes toes to toes with anything Allied faction can field.

Balance and design are really 2 different questions.

PE in Coh1 is viable but relative to the base factions its poorly designed. OKW when Volks had Schreks was 'viable' but yet it got completely redesigned.

The problem you raised of 'giving DAK an option to counter LVs rush before getting a Rad', is actually fixed in my MOD due to rejigging the tech tree, making Paks and Panzerjägers more available.

Regarding balance, I actually have the total opposite view, I really think they should do the design changes first and then balance after, as the balance will always change after the design does. For instance, the nerfs they are making to the base stats of the Wirbelwind for Wehr right now make little sense to me because, presuming they make the call-in tech dependent like they did in Coh2, its performance will change after to reflect the tech costs being factored into it. Its the same with DAK, I don't see how this design will not change in the long term.

As for why change it, I explain this in my initial post; the aggressive linearity, the kinda broken deployment system etc. But have you tried out my MOD? You could give it a go and see which you prefer? I'm totally open to changing things based on feedback and reasoned argument.

To re-iterate, I think making the design concrete should be what the devs should prioritise right now over balance.

Actually no, what they really should do more than either balance or faction redesign right now is get features into the game like replays, all the missing hotkey stuff, all the missing Coh2 features etc. As that is stuff that if left too long will never happen.

Missing features -> faction design tidy up -> balance.

In my opinion, that's what they should do.

Balance and design are really 2 different questions.

PE in Coh1 is viable but relative to the base factions its poorly designed. OKW when Volks had Schreks was 'viable' but yet it got completely redesigned.

The problem you raised of 'giving DAK an option to counter LVs rush before getting a Rad', is actually fixed in my MOD due to rejigging the tech tree, making Paks and Panzerjägers more available.

Regarding balance, I actually have the total opposite view, I really think they should do the design changes first and then balance after, as the balance will always change after the design does. For instance, the nerfs they are making to the base stats of the Wirbelwind for Wehr right now make little sense to me because, presuming they make the call-in tech dependent like they did in Coh2, its performance will change after to reflect the tech costs being factored into it. Its the same with DAK, I don't see how this design will not change in the long term.

As for why change it, I explain this in my initial post; the aggressive linearity, the kinda broken deployment system etc. But have you tried out my MOD? You could give it a go and see which you prefer? I'm totally open to changing things based on feedback and reasoned argument.

To re-iterate, I think making the design concrete should be what the devs should prioritise right now over balance.

The way the faction is designed works, what it needs is balance. So a soft counter vs LVs could be re-balancing the HT-AA or by giving an option for the 250 upgrade. PZgren are just overpriced for what they deliver, nothing to do with design. There is no need to mix everything when Relic can just move the cursor for individual unit.

The faction does not need complete redesign.
It needs cost adjustments.

The faction does not need complete redesign.
It needs cost adjustments.

Besides, it's actually impossible to judge how the base faction gameplay in CoH3 would play out because everybody seems to just be playing 1 broken strat (fallpio, airborne, italy tanks). It's weird because I didn't remember this degree of "meta adherence" at the CoH2 release. Maybe it's the fact that ladders exist and everybody sees their big chance to finally make it big in life by getting an 80%+ winrate. We're basically lacking the data to make any statements about how factions should be changed.

The faction does not need complete redesign.
It needs cost adjustments.

I couldn't disagree more.

I'd put strong money on the Deployment system being totally overhauled in the next 12 months. You don't need to take my word for it, look at the Master League games. Those 250s pretty much get left for dead 90% of the time.

The way the faction is designed works, what it needs is balance. So a soft counter vs LVs could be re-balancing the HT-AA or by giving an option for the 250 upgrade. PZgren are just overpriced for what they deliver, nothing to do with design. There is no need to mix everything when Relic can just move the cursor for individual unit.

It hobbles along on those price discounts and Battlegroup call-ins. I'm not saying balance wouldn't help but what I'm getting at is that the design is sub-optimal and this is what I would do to make it more interesting.

However design is a subjective thing, you don't have to agree.

Besides, it's actually impossible to judge how the base faction gameplay in CoH3 would play out because everybody seems to just be playing 1 broken strat (fallpio, airborne, italy tanks). It's weird because I didn't remember this degree of "meta adherence" at the CoH2 release. Maybe it's the fact that ladders exist and everybody sees their big chance to finally make it big in life by getting an 80%+ winrate. We're basically lacking the data to make any statements about how factions should be changed.

Yeah it really doesn't help that Relic made a bunch of the same mistakes as they did in Coh2; call-ins, skill planes.

Having said that, I feel a lot of the comments I made in the original post are not dependent on data. Having a linear tech path being one of them.

But that comes to personal preference. Some people might like that their factions are linear and tech choices are minimal, I'm not one of those people.

I couldn't disagree more.

I'd put strong money on the Deployment system being totally overhauled in the next 12 months. You don't need to take my word for it, look at the Master League games. Those 250s pretty much get left for dead 90% of the time.

I had a game earlier today where a pair of my 250/9 killed 88 infantry models between them and I lost one only to surprise 17 pounder that was towed to another place.

250s are good, but you need to pump mp into upgrading them, you really have to commit. They might not be as useful in 1s, but they definitely feel strong at 2s when you don't suicide them.
I'm rank ~140 with ~1300 elo atm just so you know I'm not rolling over random noobs.

I had a game earlier today where a pair of my 250/9 killed 88 infantry models between them and I lost one only to surprise 17 pounder that was towed to another place.

250s are good, but you need to pump mp into upgrading them, you really have to commit. They might not be as useful in 1s, but they definitely feel strong at 2s when you don't suicide them.
I'm rank ~140 with ~1300 elo atm just so you know I'm not rolling over random noobs.

Again, its not the balance I'm getting at. 250s as a unit are fine.

Actually no, what they really should do more than either balance or faction redesign right now is get features into the game like replays, all the missing hotkey stuff, all the missing Coh2 features etc. As that is stuff that if left too long will never happen.

Missing features -> faction design tidy up -> balance.

In my opinion, that's what they should do.

I agree. Balance is an ongoing processes and should be focused after other issues are fixed.

This was part of the problem with COH2 also. Countless patches where released but they where so focused on balanced that did not fix other issues. Even after all these patches simpler issues like fixing the veterancy system are still not fixed.

I'm rank ~140 with ~1300 elo atm just so you know I'm not rolling over random noobs.

Where can you check rank, elo and that kind of stuff for coh3? I didn't see much of those stuff in the menu.

Where can you check rank, elo and that kind of stuff for coh3? I didn't see much of those stuff in the menu.

www.coh3stats.com

Where can you check rank, elo and that kind of stuff for coh3? I didn't see much of those stuff in the menu.

https://leaderboards.companyofheroes.com/

This is my latest update.

I've been play testing it a fair bit lately and I made some extra changes, these include:

Replacing the Carro Armato in T2 with the Panzer III E





There are quite a lot of unused units in the game files of Coh3, one of these included the Panzer III E. This has a 37mm gun and in game performance similar to a Stuart. So modelling the Puma isn't even needed as we can just use the Panzer III E in its place. I edited the stats slightly and now this vehicle can zip around the battlefield being a light vehicle counter. The Carro Armato is now untouched.

Updates to the Deployment System





After basically hacking the deployment system, I managed to add the 222 as a deployment call in in the middle layer between Assault Grens and the P3 L. It's tied to tech, naturally, so it can be deployed once any T1/T2 side tech is researched, or both T1 and T2 are built. Its not quite as strong as the 8 Rad but it performs the same function.

I also replaced the Leig call in with an MG34 call in, I feel this will see a lot more play than the Leig.

Additionally I managed to update the Panzerjäger call-in to be purely the squad and not with the 250, making it much easier to call in.

Having thought about it a bit, I feel the ideal end state would be something like this:



Basically, the deployment system in my Mod and in my design has the function of allowing yet further Tech Path diversification by enabling you to cheaply tech a specific unit you need that you don't naturally get as part of your tech path. The classic example in my is teching to tier 1.5A (the one with the Pak), which has no light vehicle and using the deployment system to call in a 222 or Flak-halftrack to round out your composition or quickly pivot your strategy, without having to tech T2 or T3 or use battlegroup call-ins or 250 upgrades (although they're all options too! which is what makes it so interesting). Another example would be going the T2 route and calling in Panzerjägers or a Pak as a not fuel based AT solution. It multiplies the viable teching paths and build orders considerably and in my mod, this works perfectly. It has the draw back though of lack of reproducibility (you can only call one in every 6 minutes) and lack of unit flexibility (teching all deployments is expensive relative to normal teching). So its in no way a tech replacement.

Now, to make the decision even more interesting, what if the units you get through the deployment system, were actually different units from your standard tech? This makes the decision yet more interesting because then it becomes not just a choice of whether to get an 8-Rad through teching or deployments, but instead should I get a 222 through the deployment system or should I tech 8 rad? Should I get tech T3 and get either a Panzer III, Flammpanzer or Flak 36 or should I use the deployments to get a Panzer IV, Whirlbelwind or PAk43 respectively? The decision becomes yet more nuanced than it already was, especially if the deployment units are either better or worse, at different price points or perform the same role but in fundamentally difffernt ways (like the different between the Flammpanzer and the Whirbelwind). It also adds to the diversity, never a bad thing. So from my example above, you could get the MG42 through the deployment system over the MG34, but it would be at a premium and you'd have basically 'blown' your deployment on that unit and have to wait a further 6 minutes before you can call in something else.

All the units above are already in the game or at least in the game files. For the Marder we could use the Marder III for Wehr but I also noted references in the game files to the Panzerjäger I Tank Destroyer, which would also be interesting. The 251/17 Flak Halftrack is in the game files for Wehr but not yet used anywhere, likewise with the Pak43.

Currently I haven't been able to get the Deployment system precisely to my liking, due to limitations within the mod tools, but at some later date I will up date it to the system I detail here, presuming its not put into the game proper (which it really should! its way more interesting than the current system).

Swapping Upgrades

I moved the self repair upgrade to T3 and moved the advanced repair upgrade to T2. It just made more sense:



Battlegroup Changes

The first change I did was to replace the Flammpanzer in the Armored Support battlegroup:



This is the Stoßtruppen 251 Callin from Wehr. I don't have a particularly strong reason to use this call-in but given the limitations of the tools, there were limited options available and this seemed reasonable. Whether it should stay there in the long term, I don't have strong opinions, I just wanted to replace the Flammpanzer.

Techwise, this call-in is tied to any T1/T2 side tech or both T1 and T2 being built. The Command P4 now requires T3.

For the Italian Combined Arms battlegroup, the Semovente and Carro Armatto require either any T1/T2 side tech or both T1 and T2 being built.

Finally for Italian Infantry Battlegroup, the L6/40 requires either any T1/T2 side tech or both T1 and T2 being built.

All of the above it to purge call-in meta from the game. I'd frankly prefer if the L6/40 call-in was individual rather than as a pair but I can't change that.

Conclusion

I think that's as much as I can hack right now. The mod is up to date on Steam so check it out! https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2947341907

Once I can change more I will do so.

Relic, you know it makes sense.

So after I tried out the mod I need to say that your concept is really superior in terms of tech-ing up compared to the vanilla one that's currently implemented.

I love the ability to somewhat customize the call-ins without having to pay full price up front and replacing all of them.

However I find the recovery halftrack being missing a bit jarring as I think it's a key element in team games, also the Tiger lacking the smoke dispensers of the lighter Panzers still is bit of a miss in terms of balance in my opinion as well.

Otherwise great job and keep up the good work, I hope Relic picks this up.

So after I tried out the mod I need to say that your concept is really superior in terms of tech-ing up compared to the vanilla one that's currently implemented.

I love the ability to somewhat customize the call-ins without having to pay full price up front and replacing all of them.

However I find the recovery halftrack being missing a bit jarring as I think it's a key element in team games, also the Tiger lacking the smoke dispensers of the lighter Panzers still is bit of a miss in terms of balance in my opinion as well.

Otherwise great job and keep up the good work, I hope Relic picks this up.

Your wish is my command! Yeah so re the Recover Halftrack, I don't really like it because basically everything in Dak repairs or can repair itself. However, the economics of the unit make no sense whatsoever. As far as I can tell, the repair rate is the same as a standard pioneer, yet the cost difference is substantial and you need more pop cap, so as a late game repair vehicle it makes no economic sense. As a recovery vehicle, sure, does the job, but its not often that you actually have fields of wrecks to recover or salvage, once in a rare game. This is exactly the problem the Bergetiger had and that was barely used, good players just didn't leave wrecks.

And yeah, the design is so much more fun to play! I can't really go back now. I've raised Support cases with Relic and posted on their website, but any extra publicity I can get would be great. If anyone has connections or wants to use the publicity of their YouTube channel to promote it, I would be greatly appreciative. I'm a relative outsider to the scene!

In terms of recent changes, I managed to get the deployment system to deploy an individual MG34 rather than with the halftrack. I also had a play with Panzergrenadiers and back balanced them. I usually don't make balance changes but this one was just too glaring. I have some other minor things I want to change which I will report back on sooner or later.