3 minutes 221 is obscene

In order to get a 3 minute 221 one needs to produce a SWS truck after the second VG.

What would be the point of building a 221 after CP1 (or CP2) if one could get kubel much earlier with no tech or fuel cost?

I do not know friend. What is clear is that a 221 at 3 minutes is an absurd advantage and in my opinion something is needed to at least delay his entry into the game a little. 3 minutes, the 221 completely changes the balance of the game in favor of OKW without the USF having something that at least prevents him from simply climbing into his squadrons in cover and forcing them to flee to immediately chase and kill them. it's practically a guaranteed wipe for OKW as 221 enters the game.

I meant in combination. As far as I'm aware (take with a grain of salt as I don't play COH2 much), LVs either get an HP boost with vet, or they get/have smoke dispenser.

M20 gets HP with upgrade armor with veterancy and smoke stock.

Well, it's all well and good, but who do you shoot at when the 221 dives in to displace you from cover, and spios charge in with volks or whatever. 221, which will get repaired and not bleed, or the volk/spio which can bleed, but then the 221 will risk nothing diving all the way up to the base.
Hell, last game, paths + echelon behind green cover were destroyed by a charging spio over neutral cover (charge was about 4 seconds before spios got point blank). Hence why 221 is really good vs USF, especially vs pathfinders. Of course, most people forget that you can use the 221 to drive up (and kubel) and win any engagement early on with OKW. So it's easier vs forgetful people.

Does SP vs Paths/Echelon has anything to do with subject of the this thread or is this just a random rant?

That's why UC, kubel, M3, and all other super LVs should literally have paper thin armour and more decent offensive abilities if they lack utility.

None of the these vehicles luck utility.

2 frontal, and 1 rear armor. Only problem would be the 6 man cons.Since every shot will most likely penetrate, having 6 rifles firing at a decent rate is much stronger than pathfinders for example with the slow firing snipers, and the meh firing carbines. Or Sections, with higher damage but lower ROF.

I am not sure if you are aware how DPS work but with an armor 2/1 these vehicles would die like flies since every shot would hit them at any range and half/all would penetrate them.

Pathfinder do not have med carbines they actually have the elite carbines that paras use.

True. I've yet to see a high rank OKW player not play elite armoured and go for the fast 221 in 3v3. Brits can stomp OKW early on, before the likes of JLI, ISGs and such, purely by placing the sections behind cover on most lane-y maps. 221 completely negates that. Mainly because even though there is a huge tank wreck, and the kubel is driving straight at it, the sections will run around like the kubel will phase through the wreckage and drive over them.
Still, there should have been better designs than this. UC is stupid, but at least OKW has t0 raketen and spios with MGs to melt the UC if caught out of position (and raketen is never a bad investment, especially since you can retreat it if you're forgetful).
I haven't seen the M3 clown car action in 3v3 for a year now. Mostly because everyone plays either fussies or elite(221) so the clown car is pointless. You either get the min 0 snare, or you get the LV that can pressure the M3. And if you can force the soviet player to upgrade the penals with PTRS, then you're winning the lane most certainly.
Have never seen the WC51 in teamgames, at all. It's in a mega nerfed 1v1 commander, which will never work in 2v2+ unless the enemy is incompetent.

So all in all, there is a pattern of bad design/balance. Nothing OP or UP, just bad design

There is bad design when it comes to 221/222 but not for the reasons you claim.

I do not know friend. What is clear is that a 221 at 3 minutes is an absurd advantage and in my opinion something is needed to at least delay his entry into the game a little.

Welp but I can guarantee you that there will be no more patches for CoH2.

And since you are basically the first person that I've seen complaining about 221 rush in over 4 years, I have to tell you that it's your fault entirely when you anticipate an early 221 (you can see the enemy doctrines in the load screen) but refuse to even slightly adapt to it.

Stop trying to be "blobs are bad and for noobs" Hans and do what needs to be done. If you are running around with single riflemen who are all completely spread out and they get wiped by 221 or blob on retreat, it's not a balance problem

Stop trying to be "blobs are bad and for noobs" Hans and do what needs to be done.

Based. If it's stupid and it works, its not stupid.

Welp but I can guarantee you that there will be no more patches for CoH2.

And since you are basically the first person that I've seen complaining about 221 rush in over 4 years, I have to tell you that it's your fault entirely when you anticipate an early 221 (you can see the enemy doctrines in the load screen) but refuse to even slightly adapt to it.

Stop trying to be "blobs are bad and for noobs" Hans and do what needs to be done. If you are running around with single riflemen who are all completely spread out and they get wiped by 221 or blob on retreat, it's not a balance problem

Over 4 years the 221 has directly or indirectly been buffed against USF. I don't see much the reason to compare it to WC, UC or M3 since USF, at least, don't get proper counter until 2 minutes later, not like WH or OKW whose get pfaust and rak at the same time those mentioned units hit the field.

But let's focus on the 221.

December 12th 2018
The commander is revamped

New Ability Line-Up

221
Emergency Repairs
Panzer Commander
Heat Rounds
Sturmtiger

I remember that time you could normally deal with a 221 with riflemen, the way it is supposed to be since RM cost 280 manpower and the 221 is finally just a utility vehicle that cost 220 /20 fuel and a large part of this cost should be for their utility, not combat capacity.

But yeh, 3 months later

Feb 7th 2109
Cost from 220/20 to 220/15
Radio upgrade fuel cost increased by 5
Penetration from 1/1/1 to 1.2/1/1
Vet requirements reduced by 15%
Armour increased to 5.4 from 4

Rear Echelons were then the way to go to deal with it early game thank to their 10 damage per shot and no need for accuracy to damage vehicle so when the armor doesn't apply you actually deal damage... With the armor increase value riflemen lost value in fighting it unless in perfect green cover.

But then...

September 2019 Balance Update
Previously, Rear Echelon carbines were far too inaccurate, yet dealt somewhat high damage. This made them unreliable in most cases, even at point-blank. To make their carbines perform more consistently, damage has been reduced while accuracy has been increased.
M1 Carbine damage from 10 to 8
M1 Carbine accuracy from 0.403/0.288/0.23 to 0.51/0.3456/0.276

A clear nerf disguished as a buff. Nobody asked for it, the change came out from nowhere but around the same time some people in the modding team felt the kubel wasn't enough good early game. (Kubel got buffed twice the same year, june and september), before that RE had easy time dealing with the Kubel, after september not anymore and opened new wonderful strategies vs USF as the 2 or 3 kubel start into JLI or whatever else. Just because riflemen and then Re suck so much vs them.

Lately because the 221 wasn't already good enough, as you say nobody complained about it so there were still room for something!

Commander Update 2021 with Performance fixes - June 16th 2021
Sdfkfz 221/223
The 221 is having its veterancy requirements lowered. Previously it took too long for this unit to gain veterancy, even when near front-line troops.

Veterancy requirements from 720/1440/2880/3850/4750 to 540/1080/2160/2870/3580
Riegel AT Mines ability now requires veterancy level 4 rather than 5
-25% damage during Lockdown now requires veterancy level 5 rather than 4
Can now fire at aircraft

Evidently, with a smol inconsistent nerf to "compensate".

So yes nobody complained about it till now but it's not an argument, at best a justification for doing wrongly until someone raises his hand.

Snip

How many vet 5 221s did you get before the veterancy buffs? If your answer is zero because you're a USF fanboy, don't be ashamed. Even omw fanboys like myself couldn't achieve it either

the 221 is an anal tumor and doesn't even need to be in OKW or WEHR arsenal


but whatever, who gives a fuck about the game at this point

yes but you need to keep 2 to 3 squads focused on shooting him only. It still takes too long and your opponent will simply back off, notice and come back with him. and you lost valuable MP and Time in this game. MG doesn't come into play after 3 minutes with USF, even so a player with a minimum of intelligence will not stand still in front of the machine gun with a light vehicle. he is fast, he has smoke, he gains a lot of HP with the upgrade and Vet. with 3 minutes USF there is absolutely nothing to stop you. Best of all, he's running after the retreating troops and killing them all.

Lieutenant gets zooks, seems like the best early response
So if you see 221 in his lineup, build less rifles and see what he does

Over 4 years the 221 has directly or indirectly been buffed against USF. I don't see much the reason to compare it to WC, UC or M3 since USF, at least, don't get proper counter until 2 minutes later, not like WH or OKW whose get pfaust and rak at the same time those mentioned units hit the field.

But let's focus on the 221.

December 12th 2018
The commander is revamped

New Ability Line-Up

221
Emergency Repairs
Panzer Commander
Heat Rounds
Sturmtiger

I remember that time you could normally deal with a 221 with riflemen, the way it is supposed to be since RM cost 280 manpower and the 221 is finally just a utility vehicle that cost 220 /20 fuel and a large part of this cost should be for their utility, not combat capacity.

221 has the limited utility of dropping a single medical kit, something one can get in packaged of 3 from SP and sight which is available to other light like the kubel. When it comes to utility it does not really provide much to OKW.

When it comes to DPS:
it inferior to that of the M3 at all ranges although doctrinal
it is inferior to that of the bren of UC above range 25 (that can upgrade weapons) although doctrinal
it is inferior to that of WC51 above range 27
and both m3 and wc51 can have passenger that fight.

In sort its "combat capacity" is in line with other vehicles.

But yeh, 3 months later

Feb 7th 2109
Cost from 220/20 to 220/15
Radio upgrade fuel cost increased by 5
Penetration from 1/1/1 to 1.2/1/1
Vet requirements reduced by 15%
Armour increased to 5.4 from 4

Rear Echelons were then the way to go to deal with it early game thank to their 10 damage per shot and no need for accuracy to damage vehicle so when the armor doesn't apply you actually deal damage... With the armor increase value riflemen lost value in fighting it unless in perfect green cover.

But then...

September 2019 Balance Update
Previously, Rear Echelon carbines were far too inaccurate, yet dealt somewhat high damage. This made them unreliable in most cases, even at point-blank. To make their carbines perform more consistently, damage has been reduced while accuracy has been increased.
M1 Carbine damage from 10 to 8
M1 Carbine accuracy from 0.403/0.288/0.23 to 0.51/0.3456/0.276

A clear nerf disguished as a buff. Nobody asked for it, the change came out from nowhere but around the same time some people in the modding team felt the kubel wasn't enough good early game. (Kubel got buffed twice the same year, june and september), before that RE had easy time dealing with the Kubel, after september not anymore and opened new wonderful strategies vs USF as the 2 or 3 kubel start into JLI or whatever else. Just because riflemen and then Re suck so much vs them.

Lately because the 221 wasn't already good enough, as you say nobody complained about it so there were still room for something!

Commander Update 2021 with Performance fixes - June 16th 2021
Sdfkfz 221/223
The 221 is having its veterancy requirements lowered. Previously it took too long for this unit to gain veterancy, even when near front-line troops.

Veterancy requirements from 720/1440/2880/3850/4750 to 540/1080/2160/2870/3580
Riegel AT Mines ability now requires veterancy level 4 rather than 5
-25% damage during Lockdown now requires veterancy level 5 rather than 4
Can now fire at aircraft

Evidently, with a smol inconsistent nerf to "compensate".

So yes nobody complained about it till now but it's not an argument, at best a justification for doing wrongly until someone raises his hand.

The change of lowering damage and increasing Accuracy was never presented as buff, it clearly described as "consistency" change to reduce RNG and contrary to what you claimed it was asked multiple times and even for other units like the Conscripts and CE. It is nerf but only vs certain target like micro light. There is simply no room for "conspiracy theories".

... it clearly described as "consistency" change to reduce RNG and contrary to what you claimed it was asked multiple times and even for other units like the Conscripts and CE. It is nerf but only vs certain target like micro light. There is simply no room for "conspiracy theories".

I'm glad you agree with me it is not a buff even if they presented as such during the patch preview.

I'm glad you agree with me it is not a buff even if they presented as such during the patch preview.

Feel free to provide the "presentation" as buff in preview because it not present as one in the patch notes.

and here is the preview:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/95396/september-balance-patch-preview-spbp-general-discussion


Rear Echelon Troops
To make Rear Echelon Troops carbines perform more consistently, as currently they are very RNG dependent with their low accuracy but high rate of fire and damage, their accuracy has been increased. In return their damage per bullet will be reduced, to keep the same total DPS as now
- Damage from 10 to 8
- Accuracy from 0.403/0.288/0.23 to 0.51/0.3456/0.276

with no mention of a buff.

Guess this completely shuts down the "conspiracy theory".

How many vet 5 221s did you get before the veterancy buffs? If your answer is zero because you're a USF fanboy, don't be ashamed. Even omw fanboys like myself couldn't achieve it either

So what if there weren't any vet 5 221s? It's supposed to be a utility vehicle not frontline.
Hilarious how you respond to a perfectly reasonable post by just calling him a fanboy instead of addressing the fact that USF gets pushed off the map by OKW superlights with ease

Feel free to provide the "presentation" as buff in preview because it not present as one in the patch notes.

and here is the preview:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/95396/september-balance-patch-preview-spbp-general-discussion


Rear Echelon Troops
To make Rear Echelon Troops carbines perform more consistently, as currently they are very RNG dependent with their low accuracy but high rate of fire and damage, their accuracy has been increased. In return their damage per bullet will be reduced, to keep the same total DPS as now
- Damage from 10 to 8
- Accuracy from 0.403/0.288/0.23 to 0.51/0.3456/0.276

with no mention of a buff.

Guess this completely shuts down the "conspiracy theory".

Do you understand that making something more consistent = making it better = buff? Or don't you? I'm guessing you're understanding it but not liking it when it comes to things you don't agree with. end of the debate with you, bye.

Do you understand that making something more consistent = making it better = buff? Or don't you? I'm guessing you're understanding it but not liking it when it comes to things you don't agree with. end of the debate with you, bye.

Rear echelon/CE/Conscripts had the same DPS before and after the change.

The unit's performance was simply more based on RNG, the performance is now less RNG and thus more consistent (it does not perform better), what is so hard for you to understand?

So what if there weren't any vet 5 221s? It's supposed to be a utility vehicle not frontline.

What is that "great utility" that 221 has?
What make you think that 221 is not meant to fight in the early stages of the game the same way micro are meant to fight?
Lowering the XP value of 221 was a change in the right direction and its XP value is still higher of that of the M20.

Hilarious how you respond to a perfectly reasonable post by just calling him a fanboy instead of addressing the fact that USF gets pushed off the map by OKW superlights with ease

If you have so much trouble vs super light with USF you can simply equip AT to your RE.

USF has cheap at access to AT with tech cost of 150/15 (less than a 221) 50 mu.

What is that "great utility" that 221 has?
What make you think that 221 is not meant to fight in the early stages of the game the same way micro are meant to fight?
Lowering the XP value of 221 was a change in the right direction and its XP value is still higher of that of the M20.


If you have so much trouble vs super light with USF you can simply equip AT to your RE.

USF has cheap at access to AT with tech cost of 150/15 (less than a 221) 50 mu.

Another trash vipper post, to be expected.

It literally is a utility unit, resource generation+free sight with vet.Why should a faction with more vet-bonuses get buffs that make it easier to gain that same vet? The point of OKW was to have expensive, relatively fragile(most) units that pay-off later in the match provided you have good unit conservation. There shouldn't be buffs that make it easier to for these units to get vet.

By the time you sidetech weapons racks and have enough muni to fight off a kubel with zooks, you have already been pushed off the map and lost the game.You have 5000+ matches in this game yet you still don't know jack shit about it lmfao.

SOV/UKF have much easier access to AT that is also superior to USF AT.
PTRS>zooks early game
If you don't go T1 SOV you will have to build T2 and have access to ZiS
UKF have access to an ATG through their linear teching

Kubel is also a debatably better combat wise than a 221, since it also meshes extremely well with Sturms.

Another trash vipper post, to be expected.

Pls try to avoid non constructive comments like this one.

It literally is a utility unit, resource generation+free sight with vet.

You are confusing the 221 with 223
221 is not resource generation unit that is 223 and for that utility you pay extra resource so your original claim that "It's supposed to be a utility vehicle not frontline" is false.

Why should a faction with more vet-bonuses get buffs that make it easier to gain that same vet?

What is the point of having vet bonuses if the one can never benefit from them because one not reach that vet level.

The point of OKW was to have expensive, relatively fragile(most) units that pay-off later in the match provided you have good unit conservation. There shouldn't be buffs that make it easier to for these units to get vet.

That your own (false) theory. KT would not have any place in such a faction.

Unit like the 221 should be able to vet.

By the time you sidetech weapons racks and have enough muni to fight off a kubel with zooks, you have already been pushed off the map and lost the game.You have 5000+ matches in this game yet you still don't know jack shit about it lmfao.

Bazooka is one of cheapest hand held AT weapon both in cost and tech. If one needs them one can get the pretty early.

SOV/UKF have much easier access to AT that is also superior to USF AT.

That is irrelevant/false.

PTRS>zooks early game

That is also irrelevant.

If you don't go T1 SOV you will have to build T2 and have access to ZiS
UKF have access to an ATG through their linear teching

And again irrelevant

Kubel is also a debatably better combat wise than a 221, since it also meshes extremely well with Sturms.

Nope it is not debatable, kubel is inferior combat wise since it is less durable, has inferior DPS (almost in all ranges) and especially on the move and no turret .

If kubel was better combat wise this thread would be called "0 minute kubel is obscene".
(edited)

221 had enough HP to push Inf out of cover and abuse Anti tank inf squad.
Also, 3 minutes 221 give OKW big favor in Early engagement like sucking dmg, scouting.
By the time you get M20, Lieu Zoo, OKW can give same shit such as Sturmpios Chreck, 1st M34 or 2-3 mine alone.

Pls try to avoid non constructive comments like this one.

You still do not realize that nobody respects your opinions on here? How many times do we have to repeat this? You're going to be mocked for as long as you're here.


I'm going to repeat this all over again.

221 and the 223 are the same vehicle functionally, you do not spawn a new one by upgrading it, so I don't care which one specifically generates resources and which one doesn't.

6pounder/ZiS > M1 ATG
PTRS are better at dealing with LVs because they cannot miss them, and fire faster.
PIATs are trash but UKF have linear teching which means they will always have access to a ATG unlike Soviets.

Saying that the Kubel MG34 has inferior DPS to the MG42 on the 221 shows that you don't actually play this game, especially since it has the same effective DPS as a Ober squad without ever having to get in close range unlike the 221.By the time a 221 comes out, you can tech up shortly afterwards Lieu with handheld AT.

There is no such answer for USF if a Kubel is the first thing they see.