since we are adding prototype tanks in game

Unfortunately for you this thread doesn't lock on your tailored idea of historical accuracy. They were terrible tactical weapons.

So it was extremely un historical in COH that they could be launched pin point accurate onto individual squads and units if you so wished. Go figure un historical items in a video game.

Historically accurate? No. Is it authentic? Yes. And the Black Prince breaks authenticity.

I don’t call much of the previously mentioned items that are in the franchise very authentic, so if the words* used ie historical accuracy and authentic mean that fiction can occur as it has in the franchise, black prince is still thematic to the product.

fiction can occur as it has in the franchise, black prince is still thematic to the product.

Except, CoH fiction was with-in the scope of actually used equipment. CoH fictions were mostly presented in the abilities\capabilities of the authentic units.

Having fictional grenades or stylised fictional ability on the unit\commander is not the same as having completely fictional tank\unit.

If anyone here exclusively learns from Youtube, it's the person who sounds like they jumped straight from Sargon of Akkad's comments section (you).

Well if nothing else, we can take from this comment that you do, in fact, work at a university, considering you just confused Sargon of Akkad's comments section with pretty obvious 4chan lingo (yes, they are not the same. People who browse 4chan wouldn't be caught dead commenting on a Sargon video. And if they did, their comments would be deleted by youtube anyways).

Anyways, I was being serious about adding the Gustav gun. I think it would have been funny if every map had train tracks to roll around this behemoth on.

Authentic is a matter of opinion. Some people might think just having units that fought (regardless of numbers) in the war as all equally viable units for an authentic experience. I personally think COH is already pretty far off the mark when it tries to represent units like Infrared searchlights or Comets as core components of factions. To me, that is about the same level of sin as seeing the Black Prince as a doctrinal unit.

But at the end of the day, units are just skins. The stats we see in game rarely align with what said units were capable of in real life (IE having tanks like the Sherman having worse armor than a P4, or Comets having more armor than Panthers.) If it would make the community happier to see something like a Churchill with a HV 6lber with the same stats as this 'Black Prince,' then that is what Relic should probably go for if they believe the British need a heavy tank capable of slugging it out with other heavies. But removing the Black Prince should not mean that the British faction loses out on having a heavy tank that can fight toe to toe with Tigers or the like.

Authentic is a matter of opinion. Some people might think just having units that fought (regardless of numbers) in the war as all equally viable units for an authentic experience. I personally think COH is already pretty far off the mark when it tries to represent units like Infrared searchlights or Comets as core components of factions. To me, that is about the same level of sin as seeing the Black Prince as a doctrinal unit.

But at the end of the day, units are just skins. The stats we see in game rarely align with what said units were capable of in real life (IE having tanks like the Sherman having worse armor than a P4, or Comets having more armor than Panthers.) If it would make the community happier to see something like a Churchill with a HV 6lber with the same stats as this 'Black Prince,' then that is what Relic should probably go for if they believe the British need a heavy tank capable of slugging it out with other heavies. But removing the Black Prince should not mean that the British faction loses out on having a heavy tank that can fight toe to toe with Tigers or the like.

Why did you even come up with the idea that the Black Prince is needed? On the example of CoH2, we clearly see that the Soviets and the United States are based on tank destroyers. Their heavy tanks (namely, the tank, not the ISU-152) are practically not used. As we know, Britain will have an Archer who can perfectly fulfill the role of the Tiger destroyer. Asymmetric balance. Relic never managed to clearly explain the appointment of the Black Prince, except for the vague wording about "cool stuff".

Why did you even come up with the idea that the Black Prince is needed? On the example of CoH2, we clearly see that the Soviets and the United States are based on tank destroyers. Their heavy tanks (namely, the tank, not the ISU-152) are practically not used. As we know, Britain will have an Archer who can perfectly fulfill the role of the Tiger destroyer. Asymmetric balance.

Because why shouldn't the Brits have a heavy lategame tank that can frontally engage the Germans? It doesn't have to be the Black Prince, but more options allow for more varied playstyles on all sides. In 1v1s, that kind of asymetric balance works. But in teamgames, even to this day, we can see that balancing a game where one side only has to micro a small number of units vs. another side having to micro more individually weaker units makes for an imbalance.

In addition, it is quite silly to me that Axis factions always seem to need to have the heaviest units in the lategame. Hell, in COH3 the 'light and aggressive Africa Corps' looks like it gets a stock Tiger just to appease certain aspects of the Axis playerbase. Seems boring to me to want to go with the same old design yet again in COH3, especially when this weird idea of German lategame superiority isn't even authentic.

Because why not? More options allow for more varied playstyles on all sides. In 1v1s, that kind of asymetric balance works. But in teamgames, even to this day, we can see that balancing a game where once side only has to micro a small number of units vs. another side having to micro more individually weaker units makes for an imbalance.

In addition, it is quite silly to me that Axis factions always seem to need to have the heaviest units in the lategame. Hell, in COH3 the 'light and aggressive Africa Corps' looks like it gets a stock Tiger just to appease certain aspects of the Axis playerbase. Seems boring to me to want to go with the same old design yet again in COH3.

Again, this is a Relic design. It would be possible to completely do without heavy tanks for factions: Italy (if it would have been at the start) would not have heavy tanks, but would be based on faction destroyers. And I consider the Tiger as the main unit to be an unsuccessful design decision.

Except, CoH fiction was with-in the scope of actually used equipment. CoH fictions were mostly presented in the abilities\capabilities of the authentic units.

Having fictional grenades or stylised fictional ability on the unit\commander is not the same as having completely fictional tank\unit.

It's splitting hairs at this point, but slapping a real name on a unit does not equal authenticity either. Of course concessions have to be made to gameplay, but authenticity (at least for me) means, that what I see in the game could have occurred that way. This doesn't mean that every unit is as realistic as possible, but at least the general "ranking" of units and their main features, strengths and weaknesses are represented, which CoH got roughly right in most cases. A Sherman will lose to a Tiger or Panther. LMGs work great on long ranges. Airplanes come in and strafe your units (concession to gameplay here are their 100m turn radius, attack pattern, accuracy etc, but calling in air support and strafing runs to take out positions is realistic), etc etc.

BUT: As in the example of the V1 rocket, it is not authentic at all. Those rockets have not been used that way, they have not interferred in ongoing battles and never had the accuracy to actually hit something smaller than a large town. The model of this weapon in CoH1 is completely fictional, just saying it were a "V1" rocket does not make it authentic, since neither its uses, nor strengths or weaknesses are conveyed in the slightest.
If the main criterium is "has this equipment been used in WW2?", you're not aiming at authenticity either. At this point, it would be fine to use a normal Churchill (hek, even a Sherman) and just slap Black Prince stats on top of it so it can defeat a Panther. I am sure most people would not be fine with that.

No-one really cares. Look at this forum as an example, it's basically only Crecer and BasedSecretary who are legitimately bothered by a bit of artistic license being employed by the developers, let's call it what it is.

Several people have pointed out how completely inconsistent their complaints are with regard to realism. It'just something to argue over before we can answer the important questions like, is the game fun? Are you the units balanced and tactically interesting in a way that improves the previous entries? etc.

Why stop at Black Prince? Let's make all factions out of prototypes or paper tanks!
- Germany: E series can cover all needs: tank destroyer, main medium tank, heavy tank. Or a Panther 2 with a Tiger 2 with a 105mm gun.
- USA: T20, T23, T25, T95, T29/30 series
- Britain: Black Prince, Tortoise(A39), A33 Excelsior, Valiant, Centurion
- USSR: SU-85A, SU-101, SU-44-122, T-44, T-34-100, IS-3
Fuck authenticity, let's add more "cool stuff" to the game. We don't fucking want to play some retarded Company of Heroes that used only WWII units, we want to play World of Tanks with paper tanks or prototypes.

I guess that... you want to add Ratte?

But COH isn't an authentic franchise,

wrong.

You are confusing fun simplifications with historical authenticity.

Again, you are repeating the same bullshit as in the first posts.

ALL the machines in EVERY coh game existed. ALL. You can wikipedia them.

BUT they did not function as in their real life counterparts because then the game would be BORING. Guess what... WAR IS BORING!

Sure there are the big battles that take some months but in every textbook engagement there is the "Run. Stay. Sleep. Run. Retreat. Fight. Move on. Oh shit artillery is here." phase. Guess what most battles in ww2 were... right.

So by your stupid standards there is no point to make any war videogame because most (if not all) of them are not 100% projecting the reality of warfare.

If I gatekeep for the Axis Wunderwaffen to be monopolized by them (which I am not) you on the other hand gatekeep the entire World War gaming industry for not being "realistic" enough.

V1s didn't participate in tactical combat, Bergetigers didn't recover complete wreck vehicles, The Luftwaffe didn't participate much after Boddenpatte and they are present in the franchise doing so. I think its fairly clear that Relic tailors fiction to suit a narrative, and I'm fine with the Black prince, its not very out of this world and especially not in Relics franchise context.

I mean if they've been balancing the unit to be an allied heavy to counter the Tigers presence, I wouldn't want them to remove it and create balance issues. Since Relic doesn't care about timelines of units and you are obsessed with the deployment thing, they could add another allied heavy with he same stats from another time period in the war I guess. But simply removing the Black Prince alone is a pretty non starter and Relic isn't just going to create a vacuum, that means day one broken balance.

If they wanted a stock heavy tank to counteract the Tiger, there are literally hundreds of combat tested vehicles made for just such a purpose.

The choice for Black Panther was to appease to normies like you

No, it's just lazy filling in of balance and design that paves the way for an even bigger paper army - Japan. If you want to fit Japan into the Game against the IS-2 or SU-100 or other allied tanks, then almost the entire Japanese Army is a set of non-combat or prototype tanks.

I would unironically be up for that.

Operation "Bodenplatte" (January 1, 1945) is not the end of the Luftwaffe, during the Seelow-Berlin operation on April 16-19, 1945, almost at the end of the war, the Ground Forces supported 3,300 aircraft, this is clearly not nothing.

Don't take him seriously, he just read a single wiki thread and called himself king of Luftwaffe history.

Luftwaffe was very competent but just lost on absolute plane numbers. Even to the end of the war Luftwaffe was producing more than 1200 bombers monthly, but that's shit compared to the combined air force of the three biggest empires of the war.

I learned history from 9 collective years of university experience and ongoing learning as part of my job because I teach and write history at the university level. If anyone here exclusively learns from Youtube, it's the person who sounds like they jumped straight from Sargon of Akkad's comments section (you).

Now that we have that out of the way, do you want to address anything I said there or are you just going to futilely try and discredit anyone who has a different opinion?

You say you have 9 years experience reading history and yet is FOR the BP addition and think it constitutes a WW2 tank?

Yeah right

Authentic is a matter of opinion. Some people might think just having units that fought (regardless of numbers) in the war as all equally viable units for an authentic experience. I personally think COH is already pretty far off the mark when it tries to represent units like Infrared searchlights or Comets as core components of factions. To me, that is about the same level of sin as seeing the Black Prince as a doctrinal unit.

But at the end of the day, units are just skins. The stats we see in game rarely align with what said units were capable of in real life (IE having tanks like the Sherman having worse armor than a P4, or Comets having more armor than Panthers.) If it would make the community happier to see something like a Churchill with a HV 6lber with the same stats as this 'Black Prince,' then that is what Relic should probably go for if they believe the British need a heavy tank capable of slugging it out with other heavies. But removing the Black Prince should not mean that the British faction loses out on having a heavy tank that can fight toe to toe with Tigers or the like.

If the devs figued the brits need a "Tigerkiller" so badly, why import a fantasy unit?

So many good Churchill chassis(es?) that actually saw half a day's worth of battle available.

It's just a pity is the bottom line.