since we are adding prototype tanks in game

I agree these should not be put in. As they dont look like ww2 tanks they look like cold war tanks wich they are. The black prince still looks like a ww2 tank.

All of them are tanks of the Second World War, only the T-44 and IS-3 are serial tanks that did not make it to the war due to childhood illnesses. A tank that does not participate in the war has no place in World War II, and even more so for a prototype from 1945 to 1942. There is always an easy way to go to an alternative history - Operation Unthinkable, you can fantasize as much as you like: Black Prince, T-44, IS-3, production of the E series of tanks by the Germans under the supervision of the Allies, Czechoslovaks producing German tanks (what they did in the occupation) and fighting on the Soviet side. Any dream. Leave WWII with WWII tanks.

Its quite the irony to call this a work of fiction when we have re-written history in COH before. Sturmtigers have no success record in offensive combat yet in COH that is very different. There is no record of a V1 fired on a small unit mass like a company. The IR rifle scopes saw a deployment so limited it would have only equipped a battalion and they are integrated into the game.

So again numbers and historical weight have always taken a back seat in COH. The Black Prince isn't very out worldly when in the context of Relics unit inclusions. This really does look like gatekeeping and I'm glad to see there's people in the keep it camp in decent numbers. Greyshots new video is also worth a look.

Its a valid point you make about the other versions being a better choice. The bp just sounds cool imo.

Other people keep complaining about it just being a protype so its insanity they add it in the game, wich for a game wich is already loose with history is nonsense. Some other vehicles where produced so little and had questionable nr of actions at best, they are no better then a prototype.

This imo all boils down to only axis can have wunder waffen and big guns. Allies cant period.

add ratte yes or no?

Its kinda funny how every single argument thrown in defence of BP is complete non-sense.

CoH was never historically accurate and unit represented in a series are made\balanced in order for the game to be playable and interesting. Period.

That being said all units in CoH were used in ww2.

Problems with them were:
1) Unit might have been out of place year\front wise
2) Unit might have been built in low numbers, yet, in the context of a single match "total amount build" doesn't make any sense, since it still wont be reached.

Bringing oblivious arcade gameplay mechanics is just a stretch. You know, yeah bergitiger could have resurrect tanks, as well as regular engis can fix turret by wielding it. Both are unrealistic, but believable as well as, its purely gameplay mechanics.

Point being, stop trying to find any arguments like "it was always like this". No it wasn't. Never have been, no matter how many arguments you are trying to make. There is literally none, since even BS like sturmtiger still counts as a realistic option because it was used.

Point of the discussion is "Unit X was finished after the war and never used IRL by anyone". Period. And you either:
a) Dislike it with augmentation why
b) Like\Dont mind it, with argumentation why.

People dont like it, not because "its historically inaccurate\unrealistic". But because they dont want to see prototype units added and greenlighted.

Not because "UH WEHRBOOO SEES ALLIES HEAVY", but because there are already plenty of options which were used IRL and could be balanced to have performance of BP, since CoH has unrealistic unit stats and every unit is just a model with a bunch of numbers behind it.

you earned it

I dont mind if a other churchill model was chosen instead, it already looks like a churchil just with a big gun, so i dont see what the fuzz is about. But the sheer fanatical (for the lack of a better word) to dislike or hate for the bp adding is just astounding. Calling it all sort of things. Here is where the wheraboo part came from.
Then trying to rationalize it to we just dont want protoypes in the game. Wich somehow a single use after prototype stage justyfies another unit such as the st to be in the game. That is quite a stretch imo.

Coh2 is oversaturatted with axis heavies and superheavies as it is. I fear it will happen again but i dont want this in coh3 again.

Also the (very)low produced numbers dont matter in the context of a single game? It should and can be made to matter. Limiting these to one or a few per game or 5/10 minute cooldowns after it gets destroyed would go a long way.
If thats implemeted the bp can stay out as far as i am concerned. Then things come into proper context.

you do realize that the game is called COMPANY of heroes, COMPANY is in the military scale of numbers, ie. max 250soldiers. Ofcourse in that scale, the total number of sturmtigers/Kongigstigers/Tigers built makes no sense since no one employed those machines (that existed btw) on such tight formations.

I take comfort in the knowledge that with IR halftracks, IR Rifles that saw limited use and Sturmtigers that have a documented record of being unable to reliably target large structures we didn't need to have historical accuracy police in the COH community. They have however arrived with the Black Prince somehow and that smacks of a bit of irony. Stock King tigers, Invincible Stuka aircraft technology hell on release stock Sturmtigers. These all added up to create interesting German factions across two game as their real world army depiction would be very, horse oriented.

I'm also glad we aren't discussing numbers here as they indeed don't really matter and Relic has lent their ear to the numbers don't matter idea across the franchise history.

If historical accuracy police had existed in COH we would never have had tactically deployed v1 rockets. I mean who knew that they ran out and built the launch ramp so quickly you could launch a V1 on an opponents army that had moved into a new location. These were awesome highly inaccurate moments that i loved about COH, v1 was boss. CoH 2 also saw the removal of the limit of one King Tiger per match which was a ridiculous notion, they are much better represented as a stock unit as they add big flavor.

The Black Prince is simply joining a the COH franchise because its probably pretty boss and fun as all the above items did, regardless of numbers or historical accuracy.

The problem with the black Prince is that it's not an Axis unit.

cringe and bluepilled replies

I already said i dont mind if they picked a different model off the ones you mentioned before. You know that saw combat. Just the black prince sounds cool and i understand why they choose it. But you may have missed that part.
Axis are already bordering on prototype units with for example the st but i never was against its inclusion even stock.

100% wrong.

STurmtiger was an existing design, about 20 were made and actually have a very interesting combat history.

At any rate, not even close to "prototype". Google it, read it whatever

just dont say unhistorical thihngs

I've said this before, of course the Nazis were going to deploy things like the Sturmtiger in combat (weapons with no concern for practicality that no other army would realistically employ), because they were losing. We have a production line of a few dozen random vehicles made as technology testbeds/absurdly-specific battlefield role fillers? Send them in! Same reason why they were scraping the absolute bottom of the barrel for personnel and sending out meth-addicted kids as "elite" SS divisions. If the Allies were in as dire of a military situation I have no doubt that the few Black Princes produced would have seen combat.

add ratte yes or no?

Devs should have made like Assault Squad 2 and added the Karl Gustav.

you do realize that the game is called COMPANY of heroes, COMPANY is in the military scale of numbers, ie. max 250soldiers. Ofcourse in that scale, the total number of sturmtigers/Kongigstigers/Tigers built makes no sense since no one employed those machines (that existed btw) on such tight formations.

Yeah you make a good point. However if you and others have such a hard on for being (historicly) correct why do think adding all those heavies is fine to a game based on a company size, yet a prototype is the devil?

I never said the st didnt excist. I said it is borderline close to being a prototype.
6 compared to 19 build is a difference so small in the scale of the total war. Esp compared to how many other vehicles where build.
They where in 3 battles with max 19 build. I cant imagine they had much impact with such numbers dwindeling down further with breakdowns and logistical problems.

It really got added on its reputation almost exclusivly. The combat it saw was very very limited close to none even.

Yeah you make a good point. However if you and others have such a hard on for being (historicly) correct why do think adding all those heavies is fine to a game based on a company size, yet a prototype is the devil?

I never said the st didnt excist. I said it is borderline close to being a prototype.
6 compared to 19 build is a difference so small in the scale of the total war. Esp compared to how many other vehicles where build.
They where in 3 battles with max 19 build. I cant imagine they had much impact with such numbers dwindeling down further with breakdowns and logistical problems.

It really got added on its reputation almost exclusivly. The combat it saw was very very limited close to none even.

No.

In a company level the difference is life-and-death.

Same with the planes you so prudently talk about. Sure, in the grand scheme of things a single Heinkel bomber could never achieve anything, but at a company level a single Heinkel bombing run could alter the course of battle.

Stop comparing scale x with scale y, it simply makes no sense.

I've said this before, of course the Nazis were going to deploy things like the Sturmtiger in combat (weapons with no concern for practicality that no other army would realistically employ), because they were losing. We have a production line of a few dozen random vehicles made as technology testbeds/absurdly-specific battlefield role fillers? Send them in! Same reason why they were scraping the absolute bottom of the barrel for personnel and sending out meth-addicted kids as "elite" SS divisions. If the Allies were in as dire of a military situation I have no doubt that the few Black Princes produced would have seen combat.

"tell me you learned history from youtube channels without telling me you learned history from youtube channels"

Devs should have made like Assault Squad 2 and added the Karl Gustav.

But i've never seen an alliedcuck answering this

you want prototype machines? i give you prototype machines

If life and death at company level is your concern, V1 flying bombs never saw deployment against company level units so the fiction of never happened context is different for Black prince somehow?

If life and death at company level is your concern, V1 flying bombs never saw deployment against company level units so the fiction of never happened context is different for Black prince somehow?

Lmao first of all I never talked about V1-V2 flying bombs (check my post history). So your attempt to discredit me falls to naught.

It's funny how willing people are to push things when they do not want to concur that their arguments are borderline retarded.

It's funny how willing people are to push things when they do not want to concur that their arguments are borderline retarded.

*Starts laughing uncontrollably*

Tactical V1 Fiction + Combat capable Sturmtiger + Invincible Stuka Fuel Drop + Stock Sturmtigers (Original OKW) + Stock King Tigers + Complete wreck recovery via Bergetiger + Luftwaffe existing post Bodenplatte = Black Prince Fiction (this is one very lopsided equation to call it equal)

Not really a baseless thing, Relic doesn't care about numbers, Historical timelines, success records or whether something occurred at all. Thankfully they didn't as we have all these cool units in the game and its interesting.

Why stop at Black Prince? Let's make all factions out of prototypes or paper tanks!
- Germany: E series can cover all needs: tank destroyer, main medium tank, heavy tank. Or a Panther 2 with a Tiger 2 with a 105mm gun.
- USA: T20, T23, T25, T95, T29/30 series
- Britain: Black Prince, Tortoise(A39), A33 Excelsior, Valiant, Centurion
- USSR: SU-85A, SU-101, SU-44-122, T-44, T-34-100, IS-3
Fuck authenticity, let's add more "cool stuff" to the game. We don't fucking want to play some retarded Company of Heroes that used only WWII units, we want to play World of Tanks with paper tanks or prototypes.

But COH isn't an authentic franchise, its seen many non authentic moves and they've typically been to the benefit of creating an interesting German faction. Some on the units you've mentioned the difference of their appearance would have been German old men and boys commitment to resist long enough for their arrival such as the IS3 so fairly authentic. Whereas no matter how long they resisted the E100 and Maus had no serial production factories ready to begin production. IS3 was a decent option for a Soviet Call in they could have gone for that. Also if certain German fortifications weren't abandoned or in ruin I'm sure you very well would have seen papa Joe call in the big boys that were purpose built to deal with them, just turned out the man had run.

Again it is pretty mega gatekeeping to be hung up on this one piece of fiction now when we've had so many works of fiction that allowed a competent 44-45 German faction. Of course that's because this is a game not a history lecture as that one is one sided, they lost.

Id be curious how this discussion would have gone if from the get go the Black Prince hadn't been added but instead there was an ME 262 strafe, or a Bismarck bombardment. Curious if the resistance camp would have been as strong. With the previous titles records of complaints against the over representation of little seen Axis toys or fictional depictions of thier abilities I'm going to say little to none.

But COH isn't an authentic franchise, its seen many non authentic moves and they've typically been to the benefit of creating an interesting German faction. Some on the units you've mentioned the difference of their appearance would have been German old men and boys commitment to resist long enough for their arrival such as the IS3 so fairly authentic. Whereas no matter how long they resisted the E100 and Maus had no serial production factories ready to begin production. IS3 was a decent option for a Soviet Call in they could have gone for that. Also if certain German fortifications weren't abandoned or in ruin I'm sure you very well would have seen papa Joe call in the big boys that were purpose built to deal with them, just turned out the man had run.

Again it is pretty mega gatekeeping to be hung up on this one piece of fiction now when we've had so many works of fiction that allowed a competent 44-45 German faction. Of course that's because this is a game not a history lecture as that one is one sided, they lost.

Id be curious how this discussion would have gone if from the get go the Black Prince hadn't been added but instead there was an ME 262 strafe, or a Bismarck bombardment. Curious if the resistance camp would have been as strong. With the previous titles records of complaints against the over representation of little seen Axis toys or fictional depictions of thier abilities I'm going to say little to none.

Imaginary reasoning. But the reality is that the CoH franchise only used units that participated in the war. And the appearance of the Black Prince, the IS-3, the Mouse is a fantasy, regardless of the real prerequisites for production, they all did not participate in the war.