Penals have the worst mainline infantry target size

The concept of two starting infantry units was very poor from the very beginning. It was a long time ago to remove the Penals into doctrine abilities, give them a merge and make them something like Osttruppen.

And then none will use the Conscripts so the conscripts will "need" another buff and power creep circle will continue.

As you said in the original post the problem is the T1 and not Penals, they have been buffed in many occasions and that created more problem than it solved.

No because they fulfill completely different roles and playstyles.

No because they fulfill completely different roles and playstyles.

Penals were always an "alt" mainline imo.
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Didn't Penal received buffs because people where spamming maxims and none used them?
Didn't Conscripts received buffs because people where spamming Penals and none used them?
Wouldn't this vicious circle continue if either unit receives a buff with player simply choosing the more cost efficient unit?

The concept of two starting infantry units was very poor from the very beginning. It was a long time ago to remove the Penals into doctrine abilities, give them a merge and make them something like Osttruppen.

It was originally part of the flexible nature of soviets vs more rigid OST, Soviets had 2 play styles available non-doc were OST needed to pick a doc to get Osstruppen/AssG. OST had PG stock where doctrines were needed for Soviet elites.

Cons and Penals play completely different for most of the game, the choice between two different play styles is actually good for the game. The main issue arises from how much better Cons got after their 7man upgrade. Cons went from a throwaway squad to one of the best mainlines that also happened to get amazing vet. Hell, they even get exp boost along with cooldown bonus in cover while getting an extra man and MP reduction. The "drawback" was that it was the latest hitting upgrade however losing a Cons squad is similar to losing a VG squad in that the faction was originally designed around them being throwaways.

A possible solution for Penals would be the ability to stow away the PTRS guns. The overhead would still show them with PTRS guns but maybe grey them out so that the opponent knows when they are stashed vs when they are not. IT would allow Penals to keep their aggressive nature vs now where one unit becomes useless once upgraded.

Didn't Penal received buffs because people where spamming maxims and none used them?
Didn't Conscripts received buffs because people where spamming Penals and none used them?
Wouldn't this vicious circle continue if either unit receives a buff with player simply choosing the more cost efficient unit?

I do agree with what you say about the circle mostly.

Initialy cons where utility backbone inf with a very big rng based dps.
Penals where the damage dealers with svts flamers and satchals. They decided to nerf penals and leave cons as is for a long time.


imo they overnerfed them to their 270 mp version. This began the circle imo.
They braught penals and cons to close together. At that time they where marganaly better at combat then cons but offered no utility. So cons obviously became the best choice.

It was originally part of the flexible nature of soviets vs more rigid OST, Soviets had 2 play styles available non-doc were OST needed to pick a doc to get Osstruppen/AssG. OST had PG stock where doctrines were needed for Soviet elites.

Cons and Penals play completely different for most of the game, the choice between two different play styles is actually good for the game. The main issue arises from how much better Cons got after their 7man upgrade. Cons went from a throwaway squad to one of the best mainlines that also happened to get amazing vet. Hell, they even get exp boost along with cooldown bonus in cover while getting an extra man and MP reduction. The "drawback" was that it was the latest hitting upgrade however losing a Cons squad is similar to losing a VG squad in that the faction was originally designed around them being throwaways.

A possible solution for Penals would be the ability to stow away the PTRS guns. The overhead would still show them with PTRS guns but maybe grey them out so that the opponent knows when they are stashed vs when they are not. IT would allow Penals to keep their aggressive nature vs now where one unit becomes useless once upgraded.

If we take the original design, then the Penals is the place holders for the elite troops. If you take a commander with Shock Troops or Guards, then these units replaced Penals in T1 (Then these units were 0 CP). Penals are a pointless unit from the start, an anachronism of the original design. It should have been removed from the game a long time ago.

I think the main purpose of the Penalties is a single player campaign: with a ridiculous plot and retreat mechanics when your conscripts grow in veterancy and instead of the usual fresh conscripts they become veterans and the highest rank of veterancy according to Relic was the Penals. In multiplayer, their design was pointless.

A possible solution for Penals would be the ability to stow away the PTRS guns. The overhead would still show them with PTRS guns but maybe grey them out so that the opponent knows when they are stashed vs when they are not. IT would allow Penals to keep their aggressive nature vs now where one unit becomes useless once upgraded.

This is a cool idea, tho I fear it would make guards obselete. I could be wrong tho

This is a cool idea, tho I fear it would make guards obselete. I could be wrong tho

Im thinking it would be muni heavy as it would be advantageous to upgrade all Penals. However there is no long range snare so Guards would still be used for button or with cons. It would also eliminate the need for AT back tech. However, Penals would still drop of late game so LMG airborne or Shocks could be used more often. In truth seeing less guards should not be seen as a negative as there are many more units that would fit in.

Im thinking it would be muni heavy as it would be advantageous to upgrade all Penals. However there is no long range snare so Guards would still be used for button or with cons. It would also eliminate the need for AT back tech. However, Penals would still drop of late game so LMG airborne or Shocks could be used more often. In truth seeing less guards should not be seen as a negative as there are many more units that would fit in.

All good points, guards prob still better to replace losses than a fresh penal too

Didn't Penal received buffs because people where spamming maxims and none used them?
Didn't Conscripts received buffs because people where spamming Penals and none used them?
Wouldn't this vicious circle continue if either unit receives a buff with player simply choosing the more cost efficient unit?

Which years and metas are you specifically referring to?

Which years and metas are you specifically referring to?

Penal buffed started at JUNE 21st 2016 and Penal remained completely broken for 6 months until their flamer where removed.

Conscripts received buffs at:
DECEMBER 19th 2017
June 14th 2019
September 2019

They also received bonus to their weapons upgrades (SVT/PPSh/PTRS)

While Penal received their latest buffs on February 26th 2021

Imo the power creep is obvious.

In the end of day with the current design either Penal or conscripts will be a more cost efficient option and people will simply build one or the other.

Penals are viable in every gamemode regardless of how their stats look on paper compared to other infantry, especially elite long range infantry. They are also ridiculously good with the picked-up LMGs. I pick them if I want my build to have a punch in the early game or if I want to have more fun, since penals is high risk-high reward build. Cons are too boring imo.

Penals are viable in every gamemode regardless of how their stats look on paper compared to other infantry, especially elite long range infantry. They are also ridiculously good with the picked-up LMGs. I pick them if I want my build to have a punch in the early game or if I want to have more fun, since penals is high risk-high reward build. Cons are too boring imo.

I agree, they are overall a lot more enjoyable to play vs Cons. I like using them as they are similar to Rifleman in early game aggression. Rifleman have more consistent performance mid/late game since Penals will rely on weapon drops for boost in DPS while also lacking snare.

I don't fully agree with their viability in every game mode. In 1v1 and some 2v2s depending on randoms vs arranged team, Penals fall off fairly quickly once meds hit. Just speaking from my personal experience in 1v1, I could play however I wanted with Penals up until about rank 250. At that point, AXIS players stuck to more meta builds and literally would not deviate so no more PPSH Penals or AssGuards. To break past 200, I would stick to the aggressive Penal openings but found T2 back tech with AT guns was more effective than sticking with pure Penals. At that point, might as well go straight cons as they synergize better with team weapons along with ability to build green cover. That last point is huge as I noticed most of the late game swings were not due to gradual increase in MP drain but the random huge waste that would happen due to most available cover not being sized correctly for 6 man squads. So those random P4 shots would kill 4-5 models due to squad positioning vs the sandbags made by cons. This situation would also happen vs LMG units as those quick model drops would cause proportional DPS drop whereas the LMG squads wouldn't lose much due to the concentrated DPS.

Now AT 2v2, random 3v3 and up Penals perform fine.

EDIT: For transparency, I would purposely not pick Reg Guards commanders as I felt it took some of the fun out of the game. Probably could have climbed a tiny bit higher but not much.

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Kind of agree that in 1v1 penals are less optimal, however, you can still run a build with a sniper. Clown car is also pretty neat LV early game. With all being said I always go for later T2 with penal build, because it is extremely hard to play without at least one AT Gun. Yes, the timing goes to sh1t, but at least you are not forced to transition to PTRS penals or build a baby SU.

The grens and pgren and volks and obers work better then cons and penals. Different roles and guns and preffered distances. They compliment each other a lot better.

Firstly their timing is further apart. Secondly they provide a lot more ai power then penals do.

Penals initialy where designed to be the punch with tools to break defenses cons could not reliably give. Then they nerfed penals to the ground at 270 mp loosing sprint later as well. Cons recieved durability buffs and their dps became consistant and closer to penals.

Now we have both cons and penals with close and mid as their most effective distance, leaving soviets still with no real long range inf stock. With one being a lot more expensive while offering only a bit better dps, worse scaling and next to nothings else except satchals and light at wich guts their ai.

For this to work imo penals need to be delayed with cost increase as a side grade in t1 for example. They need to be turned more into long range inf with an x number of guard mosins at first with mobilized reserves giving the rest guard mosins, and recieve actual nades tied to mollie research. With 1 weapon slot standard and 0 after mob res to avoid opness.

Not that this will happen but one can hope.

For this to work imo penals need to be delayed with cost increase as a side grade in t1 for example. They need to be turned more into long range inf with an x number of guard mosins at first with mobilized reserves giving the rest guard mosins, and recieve actual nades tied to mollie research. With 1 weapon slot standard and 0 after mob res to avoid opness.

Not that this will happen but one can hope.

Wouldn't this be a straight nerf to Penals? SVT are better at all ranges, they just don't scale well against Elite Axis infantry. The DPS they gain from VET doesn't keep pace with the REC ACC bonuses Elite axis start with and get with VET. However since they have 2 weapon slots along with the highest acc bonuses they have the potential to be one of the highest DPS dealers in the game.

EDIT: To my knowledge that is why AssG and AirborneG get SVT and not mosins.

Wouldn't this be a straight nerf to Penals? SVT are better at all ranges, they just don't scale well against Elite Axis infantry. The DPS they gain from VET doesn't keep pace with the REC ACC bonuses Elite axis start with and get with VET. However since they have 2 weapon slots along with the highest acc bonuses they have the potential to be one of the highest DPS dealers in the game.

EDIT: To my knowledge that is why AssG and AirborneG get SVT and not mosins.

Maybe i remember wrong but gaurds mosin are quite good. Grenadier good or better. What i would like to see fixed is that all soviet inf with the exception gaurds and airborne gaurd need to close in.

6 guards mosins afaik would do more damage long range the svt's.
But what you say makes more sense about the vet bonusses in acc and rec acc.

I still think in playstyle in fighting esp early on cons and penals dont complement eachother well enough.

Maybe i remember wrong but gaurds mosin are quite good. Grenadier good or better. What i would like to see fixed is that all soviet inf with the exception gaurds and airborne gaurd need to close in.

6 guards mosins afaik would do more damage long range the svt's.
But what you say makes more sense about the vet bonusses in acc and rec acc

The guard mosin is only good to make up for how few of them u get

Unless u choose not to upgrade to dps, ur only gonna have 2 of them

The guard mosin is only good to make up for how few of them u get

Unless u choose not to upgrade to dps, ur only gonna have 2 of them

the guard mosin might be good but guards without the DP upgrade are REALLY shitty in AI, you MUST upgrade them to have that good dps

the guard mosin might be good but guards without the DP upgrade are REALLY shitty in AI, you MUST upgrade them to have that good dps

Exactly, which is my point about their mosin stats not rly mattering

Unless u have butterfinger guards who drop everything, the mosin stats wont make much difference