At the end the modding team didn’t balance the game.

If you are not top 1-5 player in entire yorld you cannot talk about balance. It is learn to play image for anyone else.

If you are not top 1-5 player in entire yorld you cannot talk about balance. It is learn to play image for anyone else.

Not true unfortunately, because if the top player plays off-meta against a comparable opponent they'll lose.
The metagame is knowing whats the strongest build.

The modding team never hided it. They had the objective to make arranged team more balanced for the reason I exposed, I didn't invent anything that what they say. Where I think they lie to us is the narrative they made of Relic not wanting to allow the necessary changed to compensate their nerf. They always knew Relic wouldn't allow those changes, they probably asked before but still knowing the answer they decided to go through it with the only condition that wouldn't impact much the 1vs1 competitive scene.
1vs1 competitive scene is fine and working if you're happy to see every time the same boring meta. Arranged team competitive scene is working as intended, there are many tournaments 2vs2, 3vs3 and 4vs4. Only thing that doesn't work anymore is the basis of balance between every factions outside of Sov and Ostheer.

Feel free to provide specific examples of changes that benefit pre arranged teams specifically.

And which is it, they failed to balance the game or they had a hidden agenda and they balanced according to their agenda?

4) Arranged teams have an inherent advantage over non-arranged teams. This is true in any game IMO. The availability of voice chat makes talking with your mates so much easier than having to take the time to text in game. There is only so much that any studio can do to make things easier for randomly assigned teams.

4a) Having separate arranged and random cues is a bad idea unless there is a huge surge in active players in team games. Even with these relatively healthy numbers (I remember the dark days when the peak players was at around 2,000) a separate cue would make wait times extremely long.

5) Balancing the game around the arguably poor faction design of the USF/OKW/UKF was difficult. The factions had unique mechanics but often lacked non-doctrinal tools to deal with all situations one would find in automatch. One effect of the balance patches, community-run or not, was to eliminate some of the unique features of each faction. For example, USF howitzer and M8 Scott no longer fire directly, instead always fire in an arc; OKW mechanized truck no longer makes you prioritize between munition and fuel gain; OKW veterancy levels are toned down so it takes them longer to unlock all abilities and bonuses than before.

Arranged team always favored Allied over Axis since Allied factions have more gaps covered by strong alternatives. this lead in arranged teams tournament being always won by who was better with Allied factions. The balance team aimed to change that, they said it themselves couple of time.

I'm not complaining here (I posted on the lobby, not balance) I just state that the balance team didn't balance more the game than it was, they adapted it to their view but not balance.

But you're also mixing two different things in your examples PakH/Scott have been nerf out of the blue with because they were too strong but nothing has been made to fill the gap they were supposed to cover, Vet5 OKW has been nerf as a compensation for the gaps filled over time. OKW is the faction that recover from the many design gaps it has originally to the point where people started calling it Ostheer 2.0

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The "Relic didn't allowed us to move unit to stock" look more like a meme today. We all knew it since the begining, MrSmith already mentioned it when he started to propose changes back then. So still using it as an excuse 2 years later isn't valid anymore.

TLDR; outsourcing a design vision bad.

But you're also mixing two different things in your examples PakH/Scott have been nerf out of the blue with because they were too strong but nothing has been made to fill the gap they were supposed to cover, Vet5 OKW has been nerf as a compensation for the gaps filled over time. OKW is the faction that recover from the many design gaps it has originally to the point where people started calling it Ostheer 2.0

I'm not speaking about the changes in terms of balance, but rather how the changes impacted the character of the later factions and how their identities were substantially changed in the name of balance.


I can't speak to arranged team allies or axis favour; in my experience, both sides have cancerous strategies and commander choices that need to be countered or feel like cheese on some maps. I find that in an arranged team there is a meta just like in 1v1 and the monotony can be debilitating after a while.

I do have to disagree with the premise that the balance patches were designed with arranged teams in mind. I think that perception is just a consequence of the inherent advantage that arranged teams have, axis or allies.

I'm not speaking about the changes in terms of balance, but rather how the changes impacted the character of the later factions and how their identities were substantially changed in the name of balance.


I can't speak to arranged team allies or axis favour; in my experience, both sides have cancerous strategies and commander choices that need to be countered or feel like cheese on some maps. I find that in an arranged team there is a meta just like in 1v1 and the monotony can be debilitating after a while.

I do have to disagree with the premise that the balance patches were designed with arranged teams in mind. I think that perception is just a consequence of the inherent advantage that arranged teams have, axis or allies.

Then you misunderstood what I said. The modding team has Arranged team matches in mind while balancing the game, not trying to balance arranged team vs random. AT vs random is a necessary evil that can't be balanced.

Sturmpanther can say they primarily balanced the game for 1vs1, true is countless of changes they made had nothing to do with 1vs1.

Then you misunderstood what I said. The modding team has Arranged team matches in mind while balancing the game, not trying to balance arranged team vs random. AT vs random is a necessary evil that can't be balanced.

Sturmpanther can say they primarily balanced the game for 1vs1, true is countless of changes they made had nothing to do with 1vs1.

So what you are saying is that because the game was balanced for 4vs4 it mess up 1v1?

What does arranged team have to do with anything?

I do have to disagree with the premise that the balance patches were designed with arranged teams in mind. I think that perception is just a consequence of the inherent advantage that arranged teams have, axis or allies.

Then you misunderstood what I said. The modding team has Arranged team matches in mind while balancing the game, not trying to balance arranged team vs random. AT vs random is a necessary evil that can't be balanced.

I'm not really sure what you're on about, mate. What I'm saying is that arranged teams have an inherent advantage over randoms because of voice chat, familiarity, etc. I hear that you're saying that you think the balance changes were made for arranged teams but I'm telling you that that is not the case, that the balance changes were mostly changed according to 1v1 strategies.

It's funny though how everyone who defends mixed matchmaking for arranged teams plays AT themselves.

Else they cannot know how absolutely nerveracking playing against randos is.

Arranged teams vs Randoms is BS in CoH2, but not because its AT vs Randoms in a first place. The only and main problem, is that AT teams have its rank separated from ranks of individual players with-in the team. This only leads to X games being ruined for other players, during this AT team ranking up. Whole AT system in CoH2 is a legal way of smurfing.

As for the idea that "game was balanced around AT teams", even if this was true, whats wrong with it? If randoms are good they still will understand how to create synergy with each other, just because they know how to play.

Sure AT teams will have an advantage in terms of VO and understanding of teammates capabilities, but still in terms of actual gameplay and strategy there is little difference between good AT\Randoms, because this is how game is supposed to be played in a first place.

I'm not really sure what you're on about, mate. What I'm saying is that arranged teams have an inherent advantage over randoms because of voice chat, familiarity, etc. I hear that you're saying that you think the balance changes were made for arranged teams but I'm telling you that that is not the case, that the balance changes were mostly changed according to 1v1 strategies.

They don't have any inherent advantage over random, they play a different game. AT vs AT doesn't provide any particular voice or familiarity advantage to any side. AT just let you min-max with combining your armies and win who's going to combine and synergy better.

I agree that any changes had to be validated by 1vs1 strategist but that doesn't mean the changes were made for 1vs1. And looking at the state of 1vs1, I really hope so.

Arranged teams vs Randoms is BS in CoH2, but not because its AT vs Randoms in a first place. The only and main problem, is that AT teams have its rank separated from ranks of individual players with-in the team. This only leads to X games being ruined for other players, during this AT team ranking up. Whole AT system in CoH2 is a legal way of smurfing.

As for the idea that "game was balanced around AT teams", even if this was true, whats wrong with it? If randoms are good they still will understand how to create synergy with each other, just because they know how to play.

Sure AT teams will have an advantage in terms of VO and understanding of teammates capabilities, but still in terms of actual gameplay and strategy there is little difference between good AT\Randoms, because this is how game is supposed to be played in a first place.

Let's take a look then:

Team 1	Team 2
You	Mediocre player
Your friend who may also be retarded	Retarded player

How will you play? You will communicate with your mate to find best strats using chat or voice chat or even play in the same physical space.

How will I, a complete rando, play? At best with PING PING PING PING PING "GO HERE gardenING kitty" with a player that maybe does not even speak english. lmao.

Also,

If randoms are good they still will understand how to create synergy with each other, just because they know how to play.

Really? Mental gymnastics level over 9000 if you unironically believe that.

On a side note, AT mixed with randoms are the worst thing to happen to this game because they also hide the fact that the current playerbase is abysmal in terms of real numbers and conceals the need for a big big change in COH3's way of things. Brainlets will be happy as long as they push a button and play, not caring about ranking systems' fairness, queueing techinques, elo etc.

How will you play? You will communicate with your mate to find best strats using chat or voice chat or even play in the same physical space.
How will I, a complete rando, play? At best with PING PING PING PING PING "GO HERE gardenING kitty" with a player that maybe does not even speak english. lmao.

And I've said that communication is almost the sole advantage over randoms. I'm not bringing all the other shenanigans about unfair MM, different languages, shit ping. In a game where MM is more or less balanced, against equal opponents skill vise AR team advantage - communication. And this is the common concept for any games, you play as a team in first place to have good communication.

Really? Mental gymnastics level over 9000 if you unironically believe that.

Except its not. The main point of the thread was that game was balanced around AT teams, harming randoms in process, which is just false. AT team are tend to abuse and create the most cancer strats, meaning that good randoms can do it as well, and nerfing something because its create OP synergy in AT teams is a perfectly common approach when balancing games.

Good USF player will know without communication if he is paired with soviet against OKW and soviet is going for maxim spam, USF have provide fast ambu. If he doesn't do it, its a bad USF player. And I've already told, that I'm not bring shit MM into the discussion here, because its 100% pointless, since if you have idiots in your team it doesn't matter who are you playing against.

But they didn’t balance the game

If anything it is my opinion that they made the balance worse than it was before. Even when giving feedback about things that would be overpowered they ignored it and released it anyway just to do a hotfix later.

(JLI, Fallschirmjäger, B4, Sturmtiger, Sector Assault among the many offenders caused by the balance team)

Everyone can agree that most of the COH2 maps are terrible, yet why would it be a good idea to have the same people work on balance when they couldn't even make balanced maps.

(JLI, Fallschirmjäger, B4, Sturmtiger, Sector Assault among the many offenders caused by the balance team).

Some of those things used to way more OP thanks to Relic. I mean you really gonna mention the B4?

How quickly people forget that the B4 entered coh2 with the "precision shot" ability. You could call in a single b4 shot with perfect accuracy. Was basically a cheaper stuka bomb with even less warning

Sturmtiger used to be a stock unit. Soviet windustry could give you like 9 minute t34s. Tiger ace used to cost 0 fuel. Relic had plenty of incompetence on their own

Some of those things used to way more OP thanks to Relic. I mean you really gonna mention the B4?

How quickly people forget that the B4 entered coh2 with the "precision shot" ability. You could call in a single b4 shot with perfect accuracy. Was basically a cheaper stuka bomb with even less warning

Sturmtiger used to be a stock unit. Soviet windustry could give you like 9 minute t34s. Tiger ace used to cost 0 fuel. Relic had plenty of incompetence on their own

What, you mean the 'glory' days of ML-20s in HQs leveling your own HQ in 1v1/2v2?
Impossible to see boobytraps so you stop counting squad losses?
Tsunami of iron men with schrecks?
Unkillable emplacements with 0s(?) CD brace?
Sniper clown car?
Combined Arms bug?

I don't get why people miss this era for the balancing.

I don't get why people miss this era for the balancing.

Complete mystery

The OG emplacements were horrifying. Mortar pits used to win games by themselves

I'm sure everyone would love to bring back 320 damage elefants and jts

I'm sure everyone would love to bring back 320 damage elefants and jts

Yeah we all want to go back to old meta where Ostheer couldn't last 10 minutes vs USF or OKW couldn't field more than a panther of the whole game.


What the point you're trying to make here? Nobody say balance was better back then but that today we've shift to something else that isn't more balanced.