HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad is OP

but both factions that have long range indirects have non-doc forward retreat points and both indirects are cheaper than the mortar

as long as the price goes down thats an alright change, otherwise hell nah

What does it have to do with retreat points if both IGs and Pack Howi cant retreat?

IGs is cheaper by 70 MP (which is reflected in its perfomance) and Pack Howi cost litteraly the same while still being questinably inferior in combat perfomance and objectively inferior in survivability.

USF\OKW have access to forward reinforcement faster, but soviets also have merge for early game and later on M5 for forward reinforcement.

In teamgames, USF\UKF teammate can always provide you with forward reinforcement just aswell.

What does it have to do with retreat points if both IGs and Pack Howi cant retreat?

I don't speak for Katukov but I'd imagine he meant that if the pak howi or leig were able to retreat, they have the possibility of only retreating back to where the FRP is. The 120mm, meanwhile, always has to go the full distance back to base.

but both factions that have long range indirects have non-doc forward retreat points and both indirects are cheaper than the mortar

as long as the price goes down thats an alright change, otherwise hell nah

Neither faction has a merge.

You will almost never lose either a leig not a pak howi to direct fire, same with the 120mm. You lose them all to being out indirected. I don't feel the 120 would need a cost reduction for losing retreat, as it already has the ability to limp away with 1 model (see oak howi for how much of a benifit this is)

Its range is its retreat and an enemy managing to get in there and out play that shouldn't be met with a bonus to survival.

I am sick to fucking death of this POS unit.

Every fucking game vs sov is the same, constantly being bombarded for almost the entirety of the game because its virtually unkillable. The only time you will kill this POS is if the opposing player goes afk.

It is absolute cancer ( in a faction that is overflowing with cheese and cancer ) and simply reinforces shitting campy playstyle with the game just dragging on way longer than it needs.

To those that say it is balanced for the price, I would say that is bullshit because it forces the axis player to constantly move any unit in range or risk major damage or wipe, whilest at the same time the 120 can remain stationary just outside base or even in base on some maps.

A unit does not have to be killing shit left and right to be OP. If it requires virtually no micro and is almost unkillable then it is OP or at the very least cancer.

Balance team really need to take their heads out of their arses and consider if changes to a unit will make the game unenjoyable because it was blatantly OBVIOUS that any improvement to the 120 would make it cancer.

Finally those that want to disagree and say its not that strong then why is it in every fucking game....

I am sick to fucking death of this POS unit.

Every fucking game vs sov is the same, constantly being bombarded for almost the entirety of the game because its virtually unkillable. The only time you will kill this POS is if the opposing player goes afk.

It is absolute cancer ( in a faction that is overflowing with cheese and cancer ) and simply reinforces shitting campy playstyle with the game just dragging on way longer than it needs.

To those that say it is balanced for the price, I would say that is bullshit because it forces the axis player to constantly move any unit in range or risk major damage or wipe, whilest at the same time the 120 can remain stationary just outside base or even in base on some maps.

A unit does not have to be killing shit left and right to be OP. If it requires virtually no micro and is almost unkillable then it is OP or at the very least cancer.

Balance team really need to take their heads out of their arses and consider if changes to a unit will make the game unenjoyable because it was blatantly OBVIOUS that any improvement to the 120 would make it cancer.

Finally those that want to disagree and say its not that strong then why is it in every fucking game....

If it's so cancerous, play as soviets and reach top10 with one build only.

I am sick to fucking death of this POS unit.

Every fucking game vs sov is the same, constantly being bombarded for almost the entirety of the game because its virtually unkillable. The only time you will kill this POS is if the opposing player goes afk.

It is absolute cancer ( in a faction that is overflowing with cheese and cancer ) and simply reinforces shitting campy playstyle with the game just dragging on way longer than it needs.

To those that say it is balanced for the price, I would say that is bullshit because it forces the axis player to constantly move any unit in range or risk major damage or wipe, whilest at the same time the 120 can remain stationary just outside base or even in base on some maps.

A unit does not have to be killing shit left and right to be OP. If it requires virtually no micro and is almost unkillable then it is OP or at the very least cancer.

Balance team really need to take their heads out of their arses and consider if changes to a unit will make the game unenjoyable because it was blatantly OBVIOUS that any improvement to the 120 would make it cancer.

Finally those that want to disagree and say its not that strong then why is it in every fucking game....

I play every faction equally and even as Axis I have never found 120MM to be overpowered.

I play every faction equally and even as Axis I have never found 120MM to be overpowered.

It is a literal rng cannon. I have made it some games where the lack of an extra inf unit has lost me game since mortar only aimed at squirrels. Other games if not outright wiping units it has drastically changed outcome of skirmishes due to a well placed hit. However that really applies to all indirect, the issue really ends up being a bad combination of low risk high reward when it comes to it ability to retreat with 1 model. Only thing that comes close is Raks with their ability to creep up with main blob and yolo out of there if shit goes south.

I play every faction equally and even as Axis I have never found 120MM to be overpowered.

I main Axis, and I second this statement. It can hit 'inconviently' but never at the level of OP-ness

I am sick to fucking death of this POS unit.

Every fucking game vs sov is the same, constantly being bombarded for almost the entirety of the game because its virtually unkillable. The only time you will kill this POS is if the opposing player goes afk.

It is absolute cancer ( in a faction that is overflowing with cheese and cancer ) and simply reinforces shitting campy playstyle with the game just dragging on way longer than it needs.

To those that say it is balanced for the price, I would say that is bullshit because it forces the axis player to constantly move any unit in range or risk major damage or wipe, whilest at the same time the 120 can remain stationary just outside base or even in base on some maps.

A unit does not have to be killing shit left and right to be OP. If it requires virtually no micro and is almost unkillable then it is OP or at the very least cancer.

Balance team really need to take their heads out of their arses and consider if changes to a unit will make the game unenjoyable because it was blatantly OBVIOUS that any improvement to the 120 would make it cancer.

Finally those that want to disagree and say its not that strong then why is it in every fucking game....

If you can play USF and actually win on a consistent basis (Due to needing to Micro well in order to succeed) when you go to a faction that doesn't suck nuts you are almost God Tier.

So say for example as Whermacht, If the map allows for it (not being forced into a chokepoint) I would have each of my individual units on seperate hot keys and micro each one individually (high APM) almost as if I am playing the Piano on my PC since that is how I have always played RTS games since the genre started with Command and Conquer.

If you make 3 Grenadiers (or Volks Grenadiers) and then put them all in a single control group and attack move them all at once then the problem isn't the 120 MM but it is the player itself.

Proper unit spacing/management and the 120 MM is borderline useless and is a fast way to get pushed off the map due to how expensive it is and the lack of unit presence on the map the Soviet player would have.

If you are also making nothing but MG's and camping then obviously you deserve to get owned by the 120 MM (or any other mortar)

remarks

+1

Frankly, you could even just remove retreat fr it entirely... The other long range indirect don't have retreat (leig, pak howi, erm... Mortar pit) and they manage fine

But they have instead pinpoint accuracy, or deadly AoE or durability.
120mm doesn't have any of that anymore, its just regular mortar with much lower rof and bit higher aoe and range.

Another thing is, all the units you've mentioned are stock, therefore available 100% of time regardless of your choices, at absolute worst arriving a bit later then they could due to own choices, 120mm isn't.

frankly the hm-38 should have it's range reduced to 80 and it's AOE to match the t2 soviet mortar, or it's price increased to 630 manpower to match it's performance cost, because i find it really overpowered that it can destroy my static playstyle

Neither faction has a merge.

You will almost never lose either a leig not a pak howi to direct fire, same with the 120mm. You lose them all to being out indirected. I don't feel the 120 would need a cost reduction for losing retreat, as it already has the ability to limp away with 1 model (see oak howi for how much of a benifit this is)

Its range is its retreat and an enemy managing to get in there and out play that shouldn't be met with a bonus to survival.

Pak howi target size of crew is 1.25, Leig is 1. Pak howi will go down to elite units in a couple of seconds. Stock like grens a bit more. When you also mention the fact that pak howi is horribly slow and non-agile, you will never ever not lose a pak howi to small arms fire. Mortar has more survivability but less firepower and is doctrinal. Leig sits somewhere in between. It's more accurate and more reliable than a pak howi but the shells are weaker and the crew is smaller BUT they are more spaced out.

120mm is completely fine. It's survivable but also shit at hitting anything that moves.

The issue with the 120 lies with 1v1 and the size of the maps.

Most people who have dismissed the issue in this thread are either a team player, a casual observer or no longer playing, a soviet fanboy just taking the piss, or someone who doesn't even play sov or axis and therefore has no business commenting at all.

Furthermore, most of the debate continues to focus of how shit the accuracy of the 120 is and not the problem that on smaller maps the unit is simply unkillable. Not survivable, but completely unkillable.
The cancer level goes up if the sov player decides to go 2 x 120. ( Note : when I say cancer I mean unenjoyable not batshit OP ).

As to the argument that the accuracy of the 120 is so bad that it is ineffective, I have to disagree. If enough games are played to observe the 120 properly then it is obvious that the 120 does consistent damage to any units in the impact radius thereby forcing a retreat to be healed or the next engagement is an auto lose. This problem is exacerbated further as the game proceeds and the 120 just continually bombards the VP safe behind SOV lategame defences. Add to this zis guns or katyusha constantly bombarding as well and all thats left is an unenjoyable cancerous shitshow of a game.

Unfortunately campy stagnant play where the player just digs in and bombards the opponent to death seems to be a growing trend over the past couple of years, but I guess that's the influence of the 4v4 crowed.

It just needs to be killable when flanked or counter bombarded.

Final Note : I have no issue with this unit countering stagnant campy play, so to the entitled smartarses that want to make juvenile comments about gren blobs or mg spam, stop wasting your time cause your entirely off the mark with your assumptions,

Is it cancer on smaller maps? Yes. Definitely.
Is it OP? No.

Being cancer does not make it OP. Lots of things are cancerous. 222 spam vs USF on map like Steppes in 3v3. Especially if you're fighting up top. Wide open space, no cover, no angles. USF stands no chance. Or maybe kubel spam on the same map. Also no chance for USF. Path spam with scotts is quite cancerous to play against. Still not OP. Neither a 222 spam on large open maps, neither a kubel spam, neither a paths spam. What else is cancerous? IS 152 on lane maps. Not OP. Cancer. Solution is clear, dont blob and plan attacks or react with an elefant/jagd. Same jagd and elefants are cancer on maps like redball. Perfect 3 lanes to nullify the lack of turret. Or maybe on redball the perfect undestructible sight/shot blocker on mid that the Sturmtiger can lob a nuke over? Or maybe as OKW going vs a maxim spam on lane-y maps. Or as USF going against am MG42 spam in buildings? Or maybeeeee. Play the Hamburger Port on top spawn... AND fighting for the bottom fuel. Worst map design ever. More cancer? Arranged team where one player is spamming calliopes and ranger zooks. Not OP but a dick move nontheless.
Got any more cancer BUT not OP scenarios? Anyone?
Pak43 on some maps is cancer. On [most] others a useless shitstain.
Feel free to add any more cancer stuff.

Point is... Sure. 120mm is cancerous but that's due to some maps rather than the unit itself. Problem is that you need to invest more nerves in dealing with it and hence the perception of OPness. On small 1v1 maps it can be camped outside, close to base and cover lots of middle ground....like Leig and pak howi... Of course, pak howi has a narrow firing arc, hence it needs to reposition itself often, losing a lot of "shelling time". 120mm has a great arc so it can continuously fire. If you further nerf it, it becomes useless in teamgames. In a 1v1 its probably best to invest in one werfer/stuka and try to sneak in one squad to finish it off if the rockets dont.

Is it cancer on smaller maps? Yes. Definitely.
Is it OP? No.

Being cancer does not make it OP. Lots of things are cancerous. 222 spam vs USF on map like Steppes in 3v3. Especially if you're fighting up top. Wide open space, no cover, no angles. USF stands no chance. Or maybe kubel spam on the same map. Also no chance for USF. Path spam with scotts is quite cancerous to play against. Still not OP. Neither a 222 spam on large open maps, neither a kubel spam, neither a paths spam. What else is cancerous? IS 152 on lane maps. Not OP. Cancer. Solution is clear, dont blob and plan attacks or react with an elefant/jagd. Same jagd and elefants are cancer on maps like redball. Perfect 3 lanes to nullify the lack of turret. Or maybe on redball the perfect undestructible sight/shot blocker on mid that the Sturmtiger can lob a nuke over? Or maybe as OKW going vs a maxim spam on lane-y maps. Or as USF going against am MG42 spam in buildings? Or maybeeeee. Play the Hamburger Port on top spawn... AND fighting for the bottom fuel. Worst map design ever. More cancer? Arranged team where one player is spamming calliopes and ranger zooks. Not OP but a dick move nontheless.
Got any more cancer BUT not OP scenarios? Anyone?
Pak43 on some maps is cancer. On [most] others a useless shitstain.
Feel free to add any more cancer stuff.

Point is... Sure. 120mm is cancerous but that's due to some maps rather than the unit itself. Problem is that you need to invest more nerves in dealing with it and hence the perception of OPness. On small 1v1 maps it can be camped outside, close to base and cover lots of middle ground....like Leig and pak howi... Of course, pak howi has a narrow firing arc, hence it needs to reposition itself often, losing a lot of "shelling time". 120mm has a great arc so it can continuously fire. If you further nerf it, it becomes useless in teamgames. In a 1v1 its probably best to invest in one werfer/stuka and try to sneak in one squad to finish it off if the rockets dont.

Seriously, your argument is other stuff is cancer so 120 can be cancer too. Ridiculous.
The idea that I have to tech to T4 to get a werfer to counter a 2CP unit also ridiculous.

The unit needs to be more fragile if its going to have longer range, simple logic. A unit can be OP if it cannot be killed, also simple logic.

How can a unit possibly be considered balanced if the opposing player can't produce an effective counter untill 30 + minutes and even then with little chance of actually disabling it permanently.

It simply needs to be adjusted like the AT guns were so that real damage can be dealt when pressured.

To say that further nerfs would make the unit worthless is just hysteria.

Seriously, your argument is other stuff is cancer so 120 can be cancer too. Ridiculous.

Thats pretty much the backbone of 99% of aurguments on this forum.

The issue with the 120 lies with 1v1 and the size of the maps.

Most people who have dismissed the issue in this thread are either a team player, a casual observer or no longer playing, a soviet fanboy just taking the piss, or someone who doesn't even play sov or axis and therefore has no business commenting at all.

you kind of want go balls to the wall full aggression vs 2x 120mm, possibly full g43 mass offensive mode with no HMGs or no more then a 1. The fact that x2 120mm is not that popular at high levels should be an indicator that strat has major weaknesses. It is kind of cancer, but that's a lot of popcap invested, which is not capping, flanking, doing recon etc.

you kind of want go balls to the wall full aggression vs 2x 120mm, possibly full g43 mass offensive mode with no HMGs or no more then a 1. The fact that x2 120mm is not that popular at high levels should be an indicator that strat has major weaknesses. It is kind of cancer, but that's a lot of popcap invested, which is not capping, flanking, doing recon etc.

Can confirm that G43s absolutely destroy 120mm

just make the 120 mm killable at 1 men remaining, make it 4 men crew, not 5 or six. and not retreat able