Design: Small arm fire

CoH2 introduced a system called weapon profiles.

This system imo was one the best designed decision in game. Categorizing weapon allow player to get an idea how to make the best out of their units without having to memorize all the possible match up.

In addition it allow the design of "relative positioning" where a player needs to place his unity in the optimum range to gain the most.

Unfortunately the system was not fully implemented while there was some issue from the start.

For instance many weapon continue to get increased DPS with range while SMG max at around range 10 so people using smg unit are in disadvantage if the close more than 10.

This imo should be fixed. For more about this here :

https://www.coh2.org/topic/52782/suggested-improvements-to-small-arms-weapons


Another issue are drop able weapons:
This weapon replace the normal weapon and thus give a different bonus to each squad. For some squad some weapon are even a downgrade (for instance PGs picking up bars).

Imo Squad should be separated into categories and have slot weapon receive bonuses or penalties accordingly.

(older relative post: https://www.coh2.org/topic/60230/balancing-dropable-weapons ).

Player friendly improvements:

Ranges, imo it would be helpful if a player could, by pressing a button, get in game range indicators that included close/mid/far indicator for the his units.

Attack move:
Attack more could also be improved by allowing the player to change the "attack range" to max/mid/close and having the unit move to that distance before stopping.

(I changed the suggestion to attack order and not attack move so that player has to choose an enemy unit)

Unfortunately the system was not fully implemented while there was some issue from the start.

For instance many weapon continue to get increased DPS with range while SMG max at around range 10 so people using smg unit are in disadvantage if the close more than 10.

This imo should be fixed. For more about this here :

Why is this an issue? It's simple game knowledge that you should not run up THAT close like 1 meter in front of the enemy with SMGs, unless you want to negate cover with the point blank mechanic

Another issue are drop able weapons:
This weapon replace the normal weapon and thus give a different bonus to each squad. For some squad some weapon are even a downgrade (for instance PGs picking up bars).

Imo Squad should be separated into categories and have slot weapon receive bonuses or penalties accordingly.

Nah this is again just a l2p issue imo. Same with these crazy lunatics that pick up a PTRS rifle with Obers or Pgrens

The last 2 points can simply be fixed if Relic would provide official stats pages in CoH3 like https://coh2.serealia.ca/# , instead of letting the community do this thing where almost nobody in the playerbase knows about these pages.

Player friendly improvements:

Ranges, imo it would be helpful if a player could, by pressing a button, get in game range indicators that included close/mid/far indicator for the his units.

100% agree

Attack move:
Attack more could also be improved by allowing the player to change the "attack move range" to max/mid/close and having the unit move to that distance before stopping.

That's a solid no, because it sounds just like a mechanic that helps bad players and dumbs the game down. We might as well improve the "Retreat" feature in coh3 and let units with less than 10% health automatically retreat

Why is this an issue? It's simple game knowledge that you should not run up THAT close like 1 meter in front of the enemy with SMGs, unless you want to negate cover with the point blank mechanic

Because you need to know exactly where every single smg has its TOP DPS, be able to judge that distance accurately in game and more importantly be able to force move all member of the squad at that distance.

Nah this is again just a l2p issue imo. Same with these crazy lunatics that pick up a PTRS rifle with Obers or Pgrens

Again one need to know if weapon his troops carry are better than said a BAR. And even if one knows one might want to be deprive from the enemy team.

In addition the ability of greatly buffing cheap units was what eventually lead to Conscripts getting 1 weapon slot (see double Vickers-K) and finally removing drop able weapons from M5.

Slot weapon should simply be balanced separately for each unit and this is the way to do it.

The last 2 points can simply be fixed if Relic would provide official stats pages in CoH3 like https://coh2.serealia.ca/# , instead of letting the community do this thing where almost nobody in the playerbase knows about these pages.




100% agree



That's a solid no, because it sounds just like a mechanic that helps bad players and dumbs the game down. We might as well improve the "Retreat" feature in coh3 and let units with less than 10% health automatically retreat

See point one. With the current system one simply can not move all entities of SMG squad to optimum range.

Another issue are drop able weapons:
This weapon replace the normal weapon and thus give a different bonus to each squad. For some squad some weapon are even a downgrade (for instance PGs picking up bars).

This is pretty much a non-issue. As far as I know the BAR vs PGren STG 44 is the only instance where this even applies. And even then the BAR is still better beyond range 23, so it's an even trade at worst, and usually worth it anyway just to deny the weapon to the enemy.


The only inconsistency regarding weapon drops that could be improved upon is how it's quite arbitrary which weapon upgrades can be dropped and which ones can't. STG 44s (as a Volks or Gren weapon upgrade) and G 43s for example could be droppable too.

This is pretty much a non-issue. As far as I know the BAR vs PGren STG 44 is the only instance where this even applies. And even then the BAR is still better beyond range 23, so it's an even trade at worst, and usually worth it anyway just to deny the weapon to the enemy.


The only inconsistency regarding weapon drops that could be improved upon is how it's quite arbitrary which weapon upgrades can be dropped and which ones can't. STG 44s (as a Volks or Gren weapon upgrade) and G 43s for example could be droppable too.

I still personally don't like weapon dropping as a feature to begin with. I'd say it either should act like Team Weapons, in that weapons are /always/ dropped when a squad is killed (And perhaps when one is picked up it replaces an existing weapon upgrade), or alternatively (and preferably) just have weapons never drop in the first place, which would put all infantry on equal footing. There would then be 0 consideration that needs be made when balancing/creating a weapon for how it would function on squads other than those it's specifically equipped to.

As it stands, and as you say, there's a disparity between various infantry squads and whether or not they have droppable weaponry (and how vulnerable a given squad is to dropping what they're holding), and even whether or not they can pick up drops (and how many), and on top of all this you have no control over weapon drops... It's rather like abandons/MGC in a way (Though generally much less impactful)

How far should droppable arms even go? Should STGs be droppable? G43s? PPSH? Thompsons? MP40? Scoped Garands? RE Grenade Launchers?

Arguably there are quite a few instances of weapon pickups being rather a downgrade. PTRS on most squads, LMGs (in particular the "weaker" ones) on SMG infantry, BARs on Conscripts (I'd argue that 7 man is simply superior there), etcetera.

This is pretty much a non-issue. As far as I know the BAR vs PGren STG 44 is the only instance where this even applies. And even then the BAR is still better beyond range 23, so it's an even trade at worst, and usually worth it anyway just to deny the weapon to the enemy.


The only inconsistency regarding weapon drops that could be improved upon is how it's quite arbitrary which weapon upgrades can be dropped and which ones can't. STG 44s (as a Volks or Gren weapon upgrade) and G 43s for example could be droppable too.

The current implementation in coh2 though is a mess.

Some units pick up the regular weapon and other pick a different weapon while other units have penalties on slot weapons.

A unified solution should be applied and these changes allow for that.

As I have already explained slot weapon should balanced differently for different units (then one could keep units like the UKF m5 in game).

Powerful CQC weapons are weak at long range and that is a problem how?

Did certain someone spammed AGs and used them against rifles for long range cover to cover fights again?

SMGs had low effective range compared to rifles IRL too, and that is how you show it in game accurately AND balance friendly, by having them being ineffective at long range.

"game is balanced" is basically the problem here.

Powerful CQC weapons are weak at long range and that is a problem how?

Did certain someone spammed AGs and used them against rifles for long range cover to cover fights again?

SMGs had low effective range compared to rifles IRL too, and that is how you show it in game accurately AND balance friendly, by having them being ineffective at long range.

"game is balanced" is basically the problem here.

Actually read the post before commenting if you don't want to look stupid.

Nobody in this thread has suggested that SMGs being weak at long range is any sort of a problem.

What was said was that SMG DPS (With the strange exception of Pioneer/OST weapon crew MP40s and Royal Engineer Stens, who instead stop doing maximal damage at 8 units, which I assume is just intended to make them weaker) is the same between 0 and 10 range, whereas all other (non-LMG/"sniper") weapons continue to ramp in damage as you get closer to your target, stopping ramping at anywhere between 8 and 0 range.

As a result SMG infantry do not, in fact, want to be extremely close to their targets. They instead want to stand at precisely 10 range, as getting closer means you will take proportionally more damage, and standing any further means you will be doing less.


I'm not sure how this actually affects engagements in practice, and the alternatives would either to be that SMGs continue to ramp FURTHER as they get closer (likely reaching absurd levels of DPS), or to fall off sooner (Which would just weaken them), but the point is that you seriously need to work on your reading comprehension.

I altered that suggestion so that attack order should be allow to be done at different range and not attack move orders. That is because A move make it easier to blob.

The change could also help with allow all entities of squad to attack from the distance something that is difficult to now since entities tend to move to where they want.

Imo Squad should be separated into categories and have slot weapon receive bonuses or penalties accordingly.

I like the Men of War system where every unit has a set of stats for how well they handle a weapon.

For example, a "border militia" russian soldier (first tier infantry) has a "1" in accuracy to all weapons besides the one he's equipped with, the rifle, which is "2" (the number is a flat modifier to accuracy so it doesn't exactly translate but you get the idea)

Whereas the elite Marines troops have a "4" in accuracy to weapons besides the one they're trained on, which would be "5".

How could this be applied to CoH3? Weapon profiles could be slightly modified by a similar accuracy number. Say, riflemen are t1 infantry for example, and since something like panzergrenadiers come later maybe they are t2 infantry so they get a higher number.

EDITED: So basically it's the exact same weapon profile but with an increase to accuracy based on what "tier" of infantry it is and also how familiar they are with that style of weapon.

I.E. Shocktroops would probably be more accurate with an MP40 they picked up off the ground than Panserfusiliers would be, because Panzerfusiliers train with rifles and Shocktroops with SMGs. (This is just a hypothetical where panzerfusiliers and shocktroops have the same tier. Obviously this isn't true in game.)

I like the Men of War system where every unit has a set of stats for how well they handle a weapon.

For example, a "border militia" russian soldier (first tier infantry) has a "1" in accuracy to all weapons besides the one he's equipped with, the rifle, which is "2" (the number is a flat modifier to accuracy so it doesn't exactly translate but you get the idea)

Whereas the elite Marines troops have a "4" in accuracy to weapons besides the one they're trained on, which would be "5".

How could this be applied to CoH3? Weapon profiles could be slightly modified by a similar accuracy number. Say, riflemen are t1 infantry for example, and since something like panzergrenadiers come later maybe they are t2 infantry so they get a higher number.

So basically it's the exact same weapon profile but with an increase to accuracy based on what "tier" of infantry it is.

Bonuses/penalties should probably include accuracy/CD and reload since not all weapon benefit equally from accuracy (see flamers).

This change would also allow slot weapons to balanced and easier compared for mainline infantry that would have no penalties or bonuses.

Bonuses/penalties should probably include accuracy/CD and reload since not all weapon benefit equally from accuracy (see flamers).

This change would also allow slot weapons to balanced and easier compared for mainline infantry that would have no penalties or bonuses.

The number could easily be called "proficiency" and include those numbers as well. But we're getting into the territory of being penalized for upgrading troops because if you lose the weapon and some enemy elite troops pick it up you're now down a weapon and the enemy got it for free.

I'm already certain that tourney players would be crying about this, like abandons.

I'm already certain that tourney players would be crying about this, like abandons.

I suppose the correlation is that they're both not very good features. "Better players don't like it" really indicates the opposite of what you seem to want it to.

The number could easily be called "proficiency" and include those numbers as well. But we're getting into the territory of being penalized for upgrading troops because if you lose the weapon and some enemy elite troops pick it up you're now down a weapon and the enemy got it for free.

I'm already certain that tourney players would be crying about this, like abandons.

Dropping a weapon and not being able to pick it up usually happens when someone overstretches his troops.

From my point of view there is little wrong being punished for it.

Dropping a weapon and not being able to pick it up usually happens when someone overstretches his troops.

From my point of view there is little wrong being punished for it.

A little bit like an overextended tank being abandoned and not being able to deal the final killing blow?

The only reason I know of that weapon drop RNG is accepted while abandon RNG is not is because weapon drops are less impactful while tank abandons are more so.

And yet you want to make weapon drops more impactful too? I don't understand.

Dropping a weapon and not being able to pick it up usually happens when someone overstretches his troops.

From my point of view there is little wrong being punished for it.

Or when a squad is geeked by a grenade, or loses one too many models on retreat, neither of which require overextending of any sort.

Squads like Guards start dropping weapons after losing only two models, too, which is hardly something that requires overextension.

You're not being "punished" for bad play, you're just getting unlucky. Being punished for overextending is losing your squad, or at the very least bleeding heavily. Why must there be an added "punishment" on top of that?

Or when a squad is geeked by a grenade, or loses one too many models on retreat, neither of which require overextending of any sort.

Squads like Guards start dropping weapons after losing only two models, too, which is hardly something that requires overextension.

You're not being "punished" for bad play, you're just getting unlucky. Being punished for overextending is losing your squad, or at the very least bleeding heavily. Why must there be an added "punishment" on top of that?

"Dropping a weapon and not being able to pick it up" is what I posted.

As for weapon drop mechanism Guards do not "start dropping weapons" losing 2 model, they have a chance to drop a weapon when they lose the fourth entity and that chances is lower then other squads. And the cap pick that weapon up.

But I am not sure why we are talking about Guards in Coh3 since they will not exist in that game...

"Dropping a weapon and not being able to pick it up" is what I posted.

As for weapon drop mechanism Guards do not "start dropping weapons" losing 2 model, they have a chance to drop a weapon when they lose the fourth entity and that chances is lower then other squads. And the cap pick that weapon up.

But I am not sure why we are talking about Guards in Coh3 since they will not exist in that game...

You can't easily pick up a weapon if your squad got obliterated by a grenade, nor if it drops while they're retreating.

Also: Guards have two DP28 and two PTRS, and to my knowledge all four of those are "droppable", so upon losing a third model you are chancing dropping something. Unless one of the PTRS are of the "undroppable" variety like the third Penal PTRS is.

Guards were mentioned as an example of a squad more prone to dropping weapons than most, them not specifically existing in CoH3 doesn't really matter.

A little bit like an overextended tank being abandoned and not being able to deal the final killing blow?

The only reason I know of that weapon drop RNG is accepted while abandon RNG is not is because weapon drops are less impactful while tank abandons are more so.

And yet you want to make weapon drops more impactful too? I don't understand.

Dropable weapons are already in Coh2 but there are a mess, some squad squad pick a better version of the weapon (see Obers) some lesser (see ostruppen).

The suggestion is about creating a unified simple system that player can comprehend. This is a design issue how impactful it is a balance issue.

Dropable weapons are already in Coh2 but there are a mess, some squad squad pick a better version of the weapon (see Obers) some lesser (see ostruppen).

The suggestion is about creating a unified simple system that player can comprehend. This is a design issue how impactful it is a balance issue.

Eh honestly "unified simple system" lends itself better to simulator games and less to asymmetric balance.

Like I said, you could easily make it a "unified simple system" by having a base weapon profile with increased/ decreased accuracy, reload, c/d based on the recieving unit's "proficiency" value. Things like firing on the move can be a perk that is attributed to every top tier elite squad. But then you have issues with balance.

It's fine when every army has similar squad sizes and such like in MoW, but with a game like CoH you have imbalances in things like that that make fine tuning necessary.

You get to a point where you simplify the CoH out of CoH. I'm all for making these individual stats easier to read but too much astroturfing and removal of all scary RNG factors is going to make a game that is less enjoyable in general.