I don't trust the official balance team.

They are literally designed to be upgraded. Paras get slightly better guns and 1 more man than rifles but cost significantly more and come at CP3. At that point your vetted Rifles would be stronger to significantly if they have Bars so the only point in buying them is to upgrade them.

Yes, but again at 2 CP mark you have your established army more or less, you have muni to upgrade them instanly or not. Its wrong to compare them to the starting unit when you are not only dont have a lot of units to support them, but also you dont have muni to spare.
Also having literal penal damage is still good, because penals damage vise are very strong squad, especially considering that at 2CP mark there are not so many vetted\upgraded squads running around.

Your are vastly exaggerating how weak PF are to start the game, both Isildur and Kimbo used a 2VG/2PF opening against USF and both won decisively. They did it in the AECOH tournament, which leads me to believe that these ELITE players thought that the "weak" start was worth it for later gains.
EDIT: Rewatching, they both also upgraded their PF squad first my guess being other than DPS the extra 7 sight helps immensely when screening for the FlakTrack.

Well they are elite players for this reason. Good players can only play with soviet T1 oppeninings against osts and not fall badly behind in map countrol. In their games its more about outplaying your opponent by possitioning\taking engagements not about units themself. They are not really a reference point imo, since you know OKW in 1v1 is a trash faction judging by the stats, while good players can present it like its a cake walk.

Point is, PF are frustrating to deal with, but imo its because their DPS is concentrated around G43. If their power was redistributed making their regular rifles not suck balls (and be better in early game in return) while tonning down G43 upgrade, they would have been fine. Since at least they would have suffer from model drops much more significantly.

Thats not true. Guards, grens and paras become significantly better with weapon upgrades, but they are not weak without them considering timings. PF in early game is objectively the weakest inf in the game considering their price.


Yeah but why? I mean you either go full house PF or 1 Volk (for sandbag) and 3 PF. There is no reason to mix volks with PFs like what so ever, simply because you will end up with a handicapped army anyway.
The only somewhat realistic scenario is 3 volks and 1 PF later upgraded with Schrecks maybe. Ofcouse exluding situations where OKW go full retard and gets like up to 5 inf squads.


This is actually funny question what is easier to deal with PF blobs or Obers. As I was saying previously obersts are uttery retarded unit, expecially in teamgames. Because the only justification of its overpowered nature - the shit DPS scaling of Volks past mid game.

You're either extremely delusional or a bad player or extremely wehr-horny.
PFs are not that weak early on. Overall the are the best mainline one can get, out of all mainlines in all factions. The G43 upgrade which also gives bonus sight is beautiful for the OKW aggressive playstyle.
What are you on about? They are the most cost efficient squad there is. There is a reason why pretty much every game features fussies in teamgames, especially vs brits and USF which lack good blob control. Their effectiveness is somewhat lessened in 1v1 due to the nature of the mode, where you don't really want to blob and lose territory on a relatively large map for 200 population.

I've seen 2x volks + 2x fussies. I've seen fussies only. I've seen fussies and kubel opening. In whichever build you add fussies, they improve the strength in all stages of the game. 10dmg paired with good long and medium range accuracy is not something to throw aside. Just compare the stats of kar98 to other mainline infantry and check the range/accuracy values, and you'll see how you can use them most efficiently.

You're either extremely delusional or a bad player or extremely wehr-horny.
PFs are not that weak early on. Overall the are the best mainline one can get, out of all mainlines in all factions. The G43 upgrade which also gives bonus sight is beautiful for the OKW aggressive playstyle.
What are you on about? They are the most cost efficient squad there is. There is a reason why pretty much every game features fussies in teamgames, especially vs brits and USF which lack good blob control. Their effectiveness is somewhat lessened in 1v1 due to the nature of the mode, where you don't really want to blob and lose territory on a relatively large map for 200 population.

I've seen 2x volks + 2x fussies. I've seen fussies only. I've seen fussies and kubel opening. In whichever build you add fussies, they improve the strength in all stages of the game. 10dmg paired with good long and medium range accuracy is not something to throw aside. Just compare the stats of kar98 to other mainline infantry and check the range/accuracy values, and you'll see how you can use them most efficiently.

Well you should firstly:
1) Agro less
2) Read what I was saying before

As I was saying 4vs4 PFs arent 1v1\2v2 PFs. In 4v4 its much easier to play with them and they are stronger.

Speaking of, can you like not bring G43 like they start the game with it for a second? G43 is BS, but I clearly said that G43 is BS, because default PFs are shit.
You can agrue as long as you want, but for a 270MP unit, default PFs are utter garbage, volks are better in early game then PFs its a fact, also the fact that volks arent particularly good should ring a bell. If you have problems dealing with PFs more then you have with Volks early, then I have bad news for you. PFs early game advantage over volks - snare, thats it, because its allow OKW to not get completly cheesed out by sov clown car and UKF UC.

And about G43 read ending of my previous post, i've said why its broken. When you have all your DPS concentrated in few models of a 6 men squad, while the rest of the squad is a meatshield you are begging to have something broken.

Well you should firstly:
1) Agro less
2) Read what I was saying before

As I was saying 4vs4 PFs arent 1v1\2v2 PFs. In 4v4 its much easier to play with them and they are stronger.

Speaking of, can you like not bring G43 like they start the game with it for a second? G43 is BS, but I clearly said that G43 is BS, because default PFs are shit.
You can agrue as long as you want, but for a 270MP unit, default PFs are utter garbage, volks are better in early game then PFs its a fact, also the fact that volks arent particularly good should ring a bell. If you have problems dealing with PFs more then you have with Volks early, then I have bad news for you. PFs early game advantage over volks - snare, thats it, because its allow OKW to not get completly cheesed out by sov clown car and UKF UC.

And about G43 read ending of my previous post, i've said why its broken. When you have all your DPS concentrated in few models of a 6 men squad, while the rest of the squad is a meatshield you are begging to have something broken.

Well you should check 1v1 yellow cover to yellow cover PF vs any other mainline mid range and long range. And also take into account the starting unit for OKW which is Sturmpio which annihilates every other mainline unit close to medium range.
And also check https://coh2.serealia.ca/# the stats of vet0 PF and compare them to other mainlines before saying that PFs are utter garbage. Utter garbage for garbage player definitely.

Well you should check 1v1 yellow cover to yellow cover PF vs any other mainline mid range and long range. And also take into account the starting unit for OKW which is Sturmpio which annihilates every other mainline unit close to medium range.
And also check https://coh2.serealia.ca/# the stats of vet0 PF and compare them to other mainlines before saying that PFs are utter garbage. Utter garbage for garbage player definitely.

And have you compared them to ... lets say volks? And have you considered that idk, Rifles\Cons already not supposed to fight at long ranges and that Tommies are winning cover to cover engagements? PFs over volks have an 0.27 DPS advantage in yellow cover at range 35. In other words PFs are inferrior at every single range then volks, and slitghtly better at long range.

What are you trying to say here? That you want to fight PFs at ranges other mainlines, but tommies are not supposed to fight and then call them strong because you arent playing properly?

But yes, lets bring sturmpios because why not. Sure. Volks are still stronger then PFs even paired with sturmpios, whats your point?

And have you compared them to ... lets say volks? And have you considered that idk, Rifles\Cons already not supposed to fight at long ranges and that Tommies are winning cover to cover engagements? PFs over volks have an 0.27 DPS advantage in yellow cover at range 35. In other words PFs are inferrior at every single range then volks, and slitghtly better at long range.

What are you trying to say here? That you want to fight PFs at ranges other mainlines, but tommies are not supposed to fight and then call them strong because you arent playing properly?

But yes, lets bring sturmpios because why not. Sure. Volks are still stronger then PFs even paired with sturmpios, whats your point?

A) Much better investment than volks, they have much better lategame potential
B) While fussies win the same engagements as volks (long range vs rifles and medium-long vs cons, close-medium range vs sections)
C) G43
D) G43
E) G43

I want to fight PFs at ranges other mainlines are not supposed to fight? So you just charge over whatever terrain to close in to PFs with rifles?
If you are first to the point, fussies (and volks) can hold their ground vs everyone



Tested an average engagement on an average map with average distance. Rifles won at that range. Cons lost, Sections got wrecked. Tested it a couple of times. Each time same result. Dropped smoke between them before making one of them the enemy. Engagements like this one are on pretty much every map there is. Cover on both sides of the point, no cover on the point and fighting to see who wins. So opening up with fussies is good vs both brits and soviets. Less so vs rifles, but considering that rifles open up with echelons which are the worst combat unit there is, you can easily turn the tide with aggressive sturmpios. You can play like that until you get G43s but that's a whole other matchup with different units behind different mainlines.

BUT THIS IS NOT THE POINT. The same tests can be done with volks and the results would be the same. The point is, the G43 upgrade makes PFs the best mainline there is, by far. Least micro intensive with lots of utility, best of which is the flare/sight upgrade.

So you have a squad that is pretty much the same as volks early on. A not too shabby squad which is poor on close range (hence sturmpios) but which upgrades into something much better than the volks upgrade. Volks downside, and the existence of Obers defines their lategame combat prowess. They fall off, start losing to pretty much everything BECAUSE the army that is behind them is vastly superior to anything allies can field. Fussies negate that. Fussies have no distinct weaknesses and have vast benefits.

The biggest problem is the myth that volks/fussies are bad at start. They have specific distances at which they win, same as rifles. And you absolutely need to take into consideration the unit a faction opens with. It's not the same fussies + sturmpio and cons + CE.
If you're talking about the starting performance (eg. first 3-4 minutes) then the starting unit needs to be included.

Well you should check 1v1 yellow cover to yellow cover PF vs any other mainline mid range and long range. And also take into account the starting unit for OKW which is Sturmpio which annihilates every other mainline unit close to medium range.
And also check https://coh2.serealia.ca/# the stats of vet0 PF and compare them to other mainlines before saying that PFs are utter garbage. Utter garbage for garbage player definitely.

I just want to point out that the website hasn't been updated for any of the 2021 patches. I don't believe it changes OKW and OST too much but Allied infantry has changed.

A) Much better investment than volks, they have much better lategame potential
B) While fussies win the same engagements as volks (long range vs rifles and medium-long vs cons, close-medium range vs sections)

A) Yes
B) Yes and no. While PF will win ideal engaments, they will win in lesser situations then Volks, simply because volks have at least some pushing pottentual, while PFs are all about being pretty much static without any movement. Thats the reason why they are more effective in teamgames, because of the nature of static gameplay. And when gameplay becomes more mobile they fall flat on the ass.

BUT THIS IS NOT THE POINT. The same tests can be done with volks and the results would be the same. The point is, the G43 upgrade makes PFs the best mainline there is, by far. Least micro intensive with lots of utility, best of which is the flare/sight upgrade.

Personally I woudnt call them THE BEST, but one of the best for sure. But as I was saying, its simply because all their power is contained within the G43. Its an example of balance made exclusively for 1v1, without considiration of how it will work in teamgames, resulting them being blobed and upgraded easily.

Thats why I was saying that I would rather see PFs to be better then volks early, but in return their G43 being nerfed so every droped model will result in significant DPS lose.

The biggest problem is the myth that volks/fussies are bad at start. They have specific distances at which they win, same as rifles. And you absolutely need to take into consideration the unit a faction opens with. It's not the same fussies + sturmpio and cons + CE.

Its not about distances, its about flexability and ability to pick your engagements. Unlike grenadiers, Volks\PFs dont have MG42 zoning enemy from them allowing to stay at their preferable range. OKW have Sturmpios as a zoning tool, but its not as near as effective as MG. In other words overall its just easy to caught OKW offguard and volks\PFs arent particullary good at 1v1ining. This is true for smaller gamemodes, which results in OKW having shit win rates in 1v1 but good win rates in 4v4.

Unfortunately, no.

Trashtalking about someone without any proof. Why am I not surprised.

I don't give a flying hoot about you. So no, I did not screenshot the moment I saw the member of the balance team trashtalk his own teammates. Say what you want, deny it as much as you want, from my experience playing vs you, you trashtalk all over the place in all-chat. Deny it all you want as I have no proof, but I know you're a bi**h-kid that cries. That brings me laugh every time I see a post from you.
EDIT: Besides, even if I had proof, do you think I'd make it public? As much as I do not care about you and think that your balancing is beyond sh**, you're still a human being and probably do not deserve and public backlash because of a game rage. As I've said, I'm not stranger to trash-talking. I know, surprising right?

I don't get it, you "don't care", but you mentioned it to begin with.

And how does it make sense that you "wouldn't want to make him look bad by having proof", but you're still totally willing to declare it to be true?

I don't get it, you "don't care", but you mentioned it to begin with.

And how does it make sense that you "wouldn't want to make him look bad by having proof", but you're still totally willing to declare it to be true?

Because I have no proof, you are free to believe whatever you want. I stated it in response to the "I don't trust the official balance team". I don't either. It's my reason as to why I do not trust them... well, at least one of them I do not trust.
I didn't declare it to be true. I've said my experience of being in the match with him. Didn't declare him anything. What are you on about?

If I did have proof, and actually put it on, I think the backlash would be much greater than me posting it on this thread ad-hoc. Here, it's just an experience of a random game, no harm no foul

CoH2's 4v4 maps are garbage and easily locked down by mg42 lines and defended by aggressive top tier infantry that are easily available. 4V4 VP#s are destroyed by any rocket artillery yes, but Axis is designed moreso for that purpose than allies due to its 'burst' nature compared with Allies' 'over time' salvos.

Thats it imo.

I didn't declare it to be true. I've said my experience of being in the match with him. Didn't declare him anything. What are you on about?

What? How is that supposed to be at all logical?

You stated your "experience" playing with Sanders was that he's excessively toxic, and you defacto declared that to be the case.

What's the point in backtracking?

Trashtalking about someone without any proof. Why am I not surprised.

Fwiw I'll pile on the anecdotal evidence and say that I haven't seen you say
anything at all in our few games

Edit : except say "you're welcome"

@harry, the OP.


You are right.

Its not about distances, its about flexability and ability to pick your engagements. Unlike grenadiers, Volks\PFs dont have MG42 zoning enemy from them allowing to stay at their preferable range. OKW have Sturmpios as a zoning tool, but its not as near as effective as MG. In other words overall its just easy to caught OKW offguard and volks\PFs arent particullary good at 1v1ining. This is true for smaller gamemodes, which results in OKW having shit win rates in 1v1 but good win rates in 4v4.

I honestly don't get what you are saying. Are PF is a bad/underpowered unit? And what unit upgraded PFs can't 1v1?

What? How is that supposed to be at all logical?

You stated your "experience" playing with Sanders was that he's excessively toxic, and you defacto declared that to be the case.

What's the point in backtracking?

He lied.

While this would fix the balance issues, I hope they'll find a different solution. Since no stats are communicated and the mechanics are fairly complex for the average player, it would be stupid to have units all work slightly differently between modes as well.

I think most issues are fixable by map design and potentially a better unit upgrade system

I don't thing there is a better solution.

I honestly don't get what you are saying. Are PF is a bad/underpowered unit? And what unit upgraded PFs can't 1v1?

Forget about G43 for a second. PFs are 270MP 0CP unit, from the get go they are weaker then volks at all ranges and have slightly better DPS at longer ranges, dont have access to sandbags. Lack of mid\close range DPS (which is not exeptional on volks aswell) means that your best bet with PFs is to camp in cover without moving much and hope that if enemy will somehow charge you, you will be able to hold your ground.
Volks on the other hand while not having super close\mid range DPS, they can still deliver a punch if charged badly, they can construct green cover and they can force enemy out of cover. In other words, in situations where volks have problems PFs have x2 problems + their own problems.

This is all about early. PFs arent underpowered\bad unit, but in early game they are intentionally handycapped because they will get G43s and G43 is so powerfull because they are rather weak early for the price. See the idea behind their balance?

In 1v1 and somewhat in 2v2 its a significant disadvantages, in 3v3 and 4v4 its not. And thats the reason why they are problem in big teamgames and lesser problem in smaller games. Because the core idea behind them is not working for every gamemode.