The state of Sturmtiger

BS. In a realistic scenario, the su85 and 1 AT gun would have killed the ST when its on the retreat. So thank you for proving my point.

in a realistic scenario, there would be 2 raketens in the backline, 4 squads of infantry and a king tiger being right beside the ST

BS. In a realistic scenario, the su85 and 1 AT gun would have killed the ST when its on the retreat. So thank you for proving my point.

That's 2 AT gun WITH su85 there. Go test yourself with 1 AT gun with su85.

Don't forget to put 2racket behind ST so you don't say "I told you so" after chasing ST far to the base.

I think the point was that maybe ST should be fragile enough to have decent chance to be penetrated by medium tanks. Nobody said that P4J should have lower armor etc, because at 8CPs, more often then not, you can afford a ST and just indefinitely bully your opponent without fear or repercussions.

To be frank here all early heavily armored tanks have this problem. Any heavy tanks (even KV-1 with its meh penetration) can bully medium tanks without much of a fear early into the game.

But its not the point. When we take ST suviability into a considiration, its indeed is very sustainable to damage, but lets be fair here AVRE is not different in this regard.

I mean, if the insane survivability is a problem on ST its sure is the problem of AVRE aswell.

My point is, there should be a clear definition. Are we complain exclusively about ST without even looking at simular problematic behavior of AVRE, in other words: very high armor, relatively high mobility, very high HP and the nature of the unit.

Or we are complaining only about ST because it has more range and bigger explosion, therefore all of what I've mention before is a problem for ST alone, but completly fine on AVRE dispite AVRE having its own advantages over ST.

My possition is - I hate both ST and AVRE, but I think its a double standart to complain only about ST, since at least half of the problems ppl mention here apply to AVRE aswell. We objectively dont see AVRE that much only because other UKF commanders are usually much better to pick, while ST commander is not situational. Even in 1v1 221 alone provide OKW with really good AI unit to support Volks and in teamgames its the only way to boost resource income if you dont have Ost as a teammate.

I mean, if the insane survivability is a problem on ST its sure is the problem of AVRE aswell.

My point is, there should be a clear definition. Are we complain exclusively about ST without even looking at simular problematic behavior of AVRE, in other words: very high armor, relatively high mobility, very high HP and the nature of the unit.

Does AVRE has survivability that of ST? YES, tho a little difference (higher armor / less hp)
Does AVRE OP as ST is? NO

Please allow me to explain why.
ST didn't caught this much of attention prior to patch even tho it had almost identical survivability(except that decrew-mechanism), AVRE is under the radar because 1) nobody plays UKF 2) It ain't good as ST.

AVRE has range of 35. So it is bounds to be located before firing. (unlike ST who has 40 range by default and can self-spot and shoot at 45 range with vet)
It still suffers trajectory early collision, so even that 35 range can't be exploited 100%.
ST has much higer MAX AoE (14 vs 8) - that deals 44 dmg - so it has higher potential of wiping wounded infantry.

So my point is: AVRE is where ST nerf should be. Some people are using it. But ain't OP for sure.

ATGs have an 82-95% chance to pen it. TDs have an 95-100% chance to pen it. Premium mediums like the Easy 8 and Comet have over 70% chance to pen it. Heavies like the Pershing, IS-2 and even ISU-152 are at 91-100% chance to pen. These chances drop with 5-7% when the ST hits vet 2, but ATGs and TDs also get a pen increase with vet to even the odds. The armor will hardly bounce anything late game that isn't a medium tank, and is not part of the issues with this unit at all.

Obviously the Sturmtiger's high durability is an issue. But that durability comes almost exclusively from health, not armor. I'd happily have it drop at least 160 health so it can't be run around as carelessly.

I agree with that. However, my point was that 220/290 armor for the ST/AVRE are not comparable to the same armor value of TDs or generalist tanks. A normal game usually has ~3 AT units on the field in the late game, often 2 ATGs and 1 TD. A normal tank like the Tiger/Pershing/P4/any generalist do not wipe the ATGs quickly enough and will still eat plenty of shots while trying to do so. But against ST/AVRE, ATGs have to run away, leaving you basically with your TD (or 2 TDs at best) as the only source of AT. Given the high health especially of the ST, these units are unable to kill it before the ST backs off.

Of both units, I think the ST is a way bigger issue due to superior vet scaling and way better faction support than the AVRE. It should surely lose its high range. Another issue is the high speed with vet which allows it to run away from damage and especially chase weapon teams and other infantry. HP could be fine if it had to do more unsuccessful attempts. However, both the speed and the AoE make it very reliable.

Does AVRE has survivability that of ST? YES, tho a little difference (higher armor / less hp)
Does AVRE OP as ST is? NO

Please allow me to explain why.
ST didn't caught this much of attention prior to patch even tho it had almost identical survivability(except that decrew-mechanism), AVRE is under the radar because 1) nobody plays UKF 2) It ain't good as ST.

AVRE has range of 35. So it is bounds to be located before firing. (unlike ST who has 40 range by default and can self-spot and shoot at 45 range with vet)
It still suffers trajectory early collision, so even that 35 range can't be exploited 100%.
ST has much higer MAX AoE (14 vs 8) - that deals 44 dmg - so it has higher potential of wiping wounded infantry.

So my point is: AVRE is where ST nerf should be. Some people are using it. But ain't OP for sure.

Alright, lets say you nerf ST range to be 35. Now it has the same range as AVRE and bigger explosion. At the same time
1) It doesnt have a turret therefore you always have to move in a strate line towards your target since you wont be able to hit anything if the enemy is paying attention and if you are not starting firing sequence the second you are in range + on top of that ST is very dependant on map layout, so moving in a strate line is not always possible. In other words the only realistic way to use it would be by pre-possitioning and pre-firing.
2) ST max speed is faster, but AVRE reaches the max speed faster. Meaning that its easier for AVRE to fire and fuck off + it pottentually can have speed boost from Hammer and on vet 3 its pretty much immune to snares since it has auto-repair.
3) AVRE in its nature faces less units which can reliably penetrate and deal damage to it, since the only unit which can do it - Panthers and Heavy tanks and they are not as massed usually as Allied TDs and even if they are it still takes much more time to do so. Allied TDs have range of 60, meaning that ST with 35 range will be usually exposed to at least 2 shots from a single allied TD (on approach and on retreat), if its spotted earlier even more.
4) AVRE has faster reload, non-manual reload, meaning it can shoot more friequently since reload starts the second shell is fired.
5) AVRE in general just shoots much faster then ST.

How would you adress these problems to not make ST just infirior in pretty much every possible way when it comes to combat effectiveness?

ATGs have an 82-95% chance to pen it. TDs have an 95-100% chance to pen it. Premium mediums like the Easy 8 and Comet have over 70% chance to pen it. Heavies like the Pershing, IS-2 and even ISU-152 are at 91-100% chance to pen. These chances drop with 5-7% when the ST hits vet 2, but ATGs and TDs also get a pen increase with vet to even the odds. The armor will hardly bounce anything late game that isn't a medium tank, and is not part of the issues with this unit at all.

Obviously the Sturmtiger's high durability is an issue. But that durability comes almost exclusively from health, not armor. I'd happily have it drop at least 160 health so it can't be run around as carelessly.

Don't know why you bring Atgun in the discussion since they're hard countered by the ST. ST has to lose much more than 160hp to be run around as carelessly.

Honestly you're answer seem more like a troll than a constructive post.

in a realistic scenario, there would be 2 raketens in the backline, 4 squads of infantry and a king tiger being right beside the ST

The ST is not at the backline if he is shooting

Don't know why you bring Atgun in the discussion since they're hard countered by the ST. ST has to lose much more than 160hp to be run around as carelessly.

Honestly you're answer seem more like a troll than a constructive post.

It only counters AT guns if the AT guns are not properly screened and sighted. Most people complain that it shoots outside the LOS. but thats their problem.

Alright, lets say you nerf ST range to be 35. Now it has the same range as AVRE and bigger explosion. At the same time
1) It doesnt have a turret therefore you always have to move in a strate line towards your target since you wont be able to hit anything if the enemy is paying attention and if you are not starting firing sequence the second you are in range + on top of that ST is very dependant on map layout, so moving in a strate line is not always possible. In other words the only realistic way to use it would be by pre-possitioning and pre-firing.
2) ST max speed is faster, but AVRE reaches the max speed faster. Meaning that its easier for AVRE to fire and fuck off + it pottentually can have speed boost from Hammer and on vet 3 its pretty much immune to snares since it has auto-repair.
3) AVRE in its nature faces less units which can reliably penetrate and deal damage to it, since the only unit which can do it - Panthers and Heavy tanks and they are not as massed usually as Allied TDs and even if they are it still takes much more time to do so. Allied TDs have range of 60, meaning that ST with 35 range will be usually exposed to at least 2 shots from a single allied TD (on approach and on retreat), if its spotted earlier even more.
4) AVRE has faster reload, non-manual reload, meaning it can shoot more friequently since reload starts the second shell is fired.
5) AVRE in general just shoots much faster then ST.

How would you adress these problems to not make ST just infirior in pretty much every possible way when it comes to combat effectiveness?

1. It is better to have turret, but AVRE's turret rotation speed is 25 while ST has rotation speed of 22. You can always "rotate" no need to move in"straight line". We may give better rotation speed since nerfing 45 to 35 is very huge nerf. But who am I to call it
Both unit requires to face the unit at front to shot as soon as spotted. Especially because range 35 means when you spot enemy, enemy also spotted you.

2. I don't see any problem with this. One has better max speed while other has better acceleraration. Faster max-speed is better in terms of running away from tanks.

3. I really really hate when Axis player something similar to this. What happened to the JP4? WM at? Why keep making Panther out of the option? Do you know 2 vet1 at can kill avre without any help? Just use the target weak skill to shock AVRE twice in a row and it's dead.

4 & 5 true. If we make ST range to 35, we surely can make ST to auto reload I guess.

1. It is better to have turret, but AVRE's turret rotation speed is 25 while ST has rotation speed of 22. You can always "rotate" no need to move in"straight line".
Both unit requires to face the unit at front to shot as soon as spotted. Especially because range 35 means when you spot enemy, enemy also spotted you.

Thats true, and what if you actually cant retreat from the possition ST is rotated to? With ARVE you always can fire and retreat using the same route. Lets say ST needs 25 degree rotation to fire. You rotate, you fire, you rotate again, you back off. How much time it will take + again considering the fact that enemy TD units have no problem penetrating you frontally. On top of the fact that ST takes longer time to shoot.
And I was saying, with a bit of micro you can get AVRE to possition its turret closer to the target you want to fire to.

2. I don't see any problem with this. One has better max speed while other has better acceleraration. Faster max-speed is better in terms of running away from tanks.

Yes and allies dont need to run for the targets, the longer target is stationarry or the longer it takes to start moving - the best for Allied TD. On top of the point #1 btw.

3. I really really hate when Axis player something similar to this. What happened to the JP4? WM at? Why keep making Panther out of the option? Do you know 2 vet1 at can kill avre without any help? Just use the target weak skill to shock AVRE twice in a row and it's dead.

Because both StuG and JP4 are medium tanks TDs. They have supperior fire-rate then Allied TDs, but much infirrior penetration. 10 seconds exposed to the Axis TD for AVRE is not the same as 10 seconds for ST to be exposed to allied TDs.

Target weak point is cool, as long as you have lucky RNG rolls to make your regular shots actually penetrate AVRE frontally, and both AT guns\StuGs\JP4 cant reliably even force to retreat AVRE if you are not lucky with them.

Even more, at least ST can be penetrated by most mediums if they actually somehow flanked it. AVRE with its rediculous 180 rear armor is almost immune to medium flank attacks aswell.

It only counters AT guns if the AT guns are not properly screened and sighted. Most people complain that it shoots outside the LOS. but thats their problem.

If your ATGs are running, there is often nothing to stop the ST from advancing. And since it drives quicker than the ATGs walk, it catches up. That's why even top players lose their ATGs to the ST.

To be frank here all early heavily armored tanks have this problem. Any heavy tanks (even KV-1 with its meh penetration) can bully medium tanks without much of a fear early into the game.

But its not the point. When we take ST suviability into a considiration, its indeed is very sustainable to damage, but lets be fair here AVRE is not different in this regard.

Not really, because all early heavy tanks have very limited combat potential, so yes, they are strong for their timing, but not "wipe an AT gun, while getting shot by another AT gun and safely retreating" type of strong, if you know what I'm saying.

AVRE may be a problem if it gets same treatment as ST (with projectile behavior), but for now it is a niche unit, which I have no issues of being nerfed, but ST nerf is indeed necessary.

On top of the fact that ST takes longer time to shoot.

AFAIK the overall time is the same. Feel free to bring up the numbers. it is indeed 0.5s faster

Can you name an arty piece that has 40 range?

No, that's why it's not a fucking artillery piece you clown. Your comparison is absolute trash

Allied rocket artillery has nothing to do with the ST. Drop your nonsense

AVRE may be a problem if it gets same treatment as ST (with projectile behavior), but for now it is a niche unit, which I have no issues of being nerfed, but ST nerf is indeed necessary.

I dont have problem with ST being nerfed, but so far, no offence to anybody on this thread, most of the relies are either a rant, holywar or suggestions which would just break the unit.

I'm sure there are some good suggestions, but I its hard to see when we have 11 pages of a shitstorm.

Maybe CP\Price increase, maybe count it as heavy tank locking KT out, maybe make it immobile while reloading, maybe increase firing time even more, maybe add crewshock debuffs if fired on, maybe nerf AOE a little, maybe even add scatter at max range.

But people have the idea that the only way to fix ST is by butchering its combat perfomance, either by blantly by comparing it to the AVRE or without even comparison.

I dont have problem with ST being nerfed, but so far, no offence to anybody on this thread, most of the relies are either a rant, holywar or suggestions which would just break the unit.

I'm sure there are some good suggestions, but I its hard to see when we have 11 pages of a shitstorm.

Maybe CP\Price increase, maybe count it as heavy tank locking KT out, maybe make it immobile while reloading, maybe increase firing time even more, maybe add crewshock debuffs if fired on. But people have the idea that the only way to fix ST is to butcher its combat perfomance, either blantly by comparing it to AVRE or without even comparison.

I think it would have been easier if there were less blatant fanboys that may even go as far as comparing ST to katy and going on a couple dozens comments long tangent, but we have what we have. Also I have a suspicion that balance team does not give even several crap about this forum. Won't be surprised of they think the unit is OK.

I'm okay with butchering any of those units performance, the game is very tame, caused by of lots of iterations of nerfs, but such units just bust through everything. ST and AVRE same with B4 should be a meme fun unit, not competitive one. Goliath is a meme unit, b4 used to be one, and those unit should have the same role. They should be "fun" but not strong.

I'm okay with butchering any of those units performance, the game is very tame, caused by of lots of iterations of nerfs, but such units just bust through everything. ST and AVRE same with B4

Thats the whole point. We either should butcher all of them because, dispite them being different, whole idea behind them is the same. Or they should recieve soft nerfs via some resonable disadvantages, but they will still remain strong.

But I'm not sure if balance team is fine with "meme" units, but they are clearly uncappable of "rethinking" meme units into a proper ones. Since they made B4 into a cancer unit on its own, but the same people who want to nerf ST in a different thread will be saying that B4 is completly fine because Axis have a ST.

And balance team would say "Welp, we are playing top 100 teamgames, maybe even pre-mades, and there is always a guy with an off-map, thats why everything is fine."

Thats the whole point. We either should butcher all of them because, dispite them being different, whole idea behind them is the same. Or they should recieve soft nerfs via some resonable disadvantages, but they will still remain strong.

But I'm not sure if balance team is fine with "meme" units, but they are clearly uncappable of "rethinking" meme units into a proper ones. Since they made B4 into a cancer unit on its own, but the same people who want to nerf ST in a different thread will be saying that B4 is completly fine because Axis have a ST.

And balance team would say "Welp, we are playing top 100 teamgames, maybe even pre-mades, and there is always a guy with an off-map, thats why everything is fine."

More important point is that this topic is about Sturmtiger, If you believe the Avre is over performing then feel free to open a dedicated topic about it.
You can't compare those unit in a vacuum because even if they are similar because their army surrounding them aren't. OKW is not Brit. And a big part of over performing performances of a unit comes from the faction that facilitate easy counter to intended counters.

A Sturmtiger in a vacuum isn't impossible to beat with a TD, but then when you add the 2 raketen that will always follow it, the problem appears because there is no way for any allied faction to be able to quickly disable those 2 units and at the same time take on the Sturmtiger with the same amount of resources.
And then you also get the question of micromanagement taxes to perform it and cost of failure.

Is the Avre in the same position? I don't know but feel free to open a dedicated topic to answer the question.

Id be perfectly happy removing sturmtiger and brit AVRE from the game, or nerfing them both. But as long as the AVRE is a powerful as it is, the sturmtiger should be on par with it which it currently is. Both units are a bit OP imo but the sturm tiger at least functions as it is supposed to now.

I dont have problem with ST being nerfed, but so far, no offence to anybody on this thread, most of the relies are either a rant, holywar or suggestions which would just break the unit.

I'm sure there are some good suggestions, but I its hard to see when we have 11 pages of a shitstorm.

Maybe CP\Price increase, maybe count it as heavy tank locking KT out, maybe make it immobile while reloading, maybe increase firing time even more, maybe add crewshock debuffs if fired on, maybe nerf AOE a little, maybe even add scatter at max range.

You trash the thread and then post a bunch of suggestions that were already made by multiple people in the same thread. Okay dude